The General understanding of Libertarianism.

Tnu1138

What does it take for people not understand that Libertarianism =/= Conservatism/ Corporatism under a different name? It's closest to the ideology of Classical Liberalism actually. based largely on enlightenment philosophy.This just bothers me to no end it's like people are begging for an oppressive state.

ClockworkUniverse

As someone with libertarian leanings myself, I do find the common misunderstandings of the philosophy rather...uncomfortable (dunno if that's the right word to use).

I think the reason for it is that a lot of political views can fall under it, and people tend to notice the more crazy, in-your-face examples of an ideology (or group thereof) more easily, creating an unfavorable first impression.

IanExMachina

Dunno. 

Libertarianism just bothers me to no end it's like people are begging to left without any kind of services relying on the charity of others, leading to lots of death and failure.

ClockworkUniverse

Voluntary charity is a wonderful thing. Mandatory charity, less so.

Forzare

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Tnu1138

Yes charity isn't charity if it's mandatory this just goes in to "I'm so generous I'm willing to use your money to help people"

Myrmidon

I oppose libertarianism, because I believe that gays should be allowed to be married.

Tnu1138

Wait Libertarianism is pro-gay marriage what are you talking about?

IanExMachina

@INUH

In an ideal world where everyone cared/was altruistic you'd be right.

However if you took away the taxes that paid for say the NHS in the UK, and relied upon charity/private institutions to carry the burden. So it would either become super expensive, meaning less people can afford stuff, leading to reactive healthcare rather than preventative, leading to worse health for all.  Or it would be substandard leading to worse health for all.

So by having your freedom to give, you lower a nation's health. 

Also possible example of failure:

Nursing home near me that due to this Big Society lark (remove funding from state let private industry take it and charity pay/work for it) was left to be run by private company and volunteers has shut down after the local council pulled out. Which has undoubtedly been great for all those who received care there/ who had family there.

GLORIOUSLeader

^^^ 

Tnu1138

My eyesight is very poor I can't even read most of htat.

Myrmidon

I also oppose the excesses of the Stalinist goverment, so I have no choice but to reject Libertarianism.

ClockworkUniverse

@IanExMachina:I think some taxation is necessary. Healthcare's...more debatable than "having a judicial system," but in the grand scheme of things, one of the more important things tax money goes to.

But there are other things that taxes pay for that are, shall we say, less important. Military spending (on overseas actions), Social Security (at least, in America. I dunno about any foreign equivalents that exist) and other assorted bullshit (my city spends tens of thousands of dollars a year on maintaining a public ice skating rink that nobody actually goes to). The portion of taxation that supports these things could be chopped off with no real loss.

Tnu1138

What are you talking about Myrm What do you think Libertarianism is anyway?

CaptainFargle

Okay, I need to make sure we're all on the same page here. When you guys are talking about Libertarianism what you're referring to is the Libertarianism that's the diametric opposite of Communism yes?

"No one is ever forced to do anything. Everyone is free to do whatever the hell they want so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else and no-one has any responsibilities to anyone else." Extreme individualism as opposed to Communism's extreme collectivism. Am I correct in this definition?

IanExMachina

^^^ I'm not against stopping taxpayer funding for 'useless things' (fuck you PFI schemes)

However I am all for healthcare infrastructure welfare in general.

By virtue of my political ideals, unless we live in an ideal world my views are never really going to be compatible with libertarianism to a strong degree.

(Also was my example of the nursing home correct?)

Tnu1138

That's a large part of it yes however voluntary collectivism is generally encouraged or at least accepted so you could have a small Socialist Commune or whatnot in a libertarian society.

ClockworkUniverse

"No one is ever forced to do anything. Everyone is free to do whatever the hell they want so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.and no-one has any responsibilities to anyone else."

There are different extents of it, but I'd say that's more or less correct except for the "and no-one has any responsibilities to anyone else" bit, as I'd argue that all humans do have an inherent tendency to care about other humans, and anyone who doesn't is punished by means of a naturally-emergent exclusion from society.

ClockworkUniverse

Argh, ninja'd...Ian, I can certainly understand you viewpoint. And I'm definitely inclined to agree that healthcare is one of the last things I'd chop off of government spending, if I would at all. And I'd say your nursing home example is good.

Huh, I was expecting to get ninja'd again, but I wound up double-posting instead. Oops.

IanExMachina

@INUH Thanks for the clarification

I'm pretty sure I'm just going to agree to disagree with libertarians, whilst hoping they never ever get into power.

How would you like to see your country run in your view of libertarianism?

ClockworkUniverse

Hm. Well, I'd like to see the government raise as much money as possible through things like lotteries. It's a method of raising money that can be extremely profitable while being entirely voluntary.

CaptainFargle

Right, now that we've established what we're actually talking about here allow me to explain why it doesn't work. 

It doesn't work for the same reasons that Communism doesn't work. Both philosophies don't work because they're extremist positions that fail to accurately reflect how human populations operate. 

Or to put it more simply: People don't work that way. 

IanExMachina

Well that does work to a degree, as the lottery fund over here does do the arts and other things.

However what should be cut, what would you keep? Etc.

I'm just curious.

Tnu1138

So Liberalism and Conservatism arn't extremist positions?

GLORIOUSLeader

No. 

Tnu1138

Then how is Libertarianism it's basically what you get when you combine Conservative economic positions an dliberal social positions.

ClockworkUniverse

@Fargle:I definitely agree that it's almost certainly impossible to make a government run on the purest distilled essence of a single political ideology. I'm a libertarian mostly in that I think modern governments need to shift in that direction.

@Ian:Hmm...here's a very incomplete list of stuff that pops into my head at the moment.

Cut:

Assorted bullshit that has nothing to do with the government (see my aforementioned ice skating rink)

Social Security (as said above)

Overseas military spending (I don't think a country has a right to attack another unless it itself is attacked.)

Keep:

Healthcare to an extent, at least until something better can be found, but try not to spend more than is actually needed on it.

Social order stuff (laws, cops and courthouses are of course needed. Some laws would stay and some would go, though which fall in which category is very debatable.)

CaptainFargle

Liberalism and Conservatism are trends, patterns that determine what end of a scale you lean towards. Libertarianism is an ethos, a codified standard of behaviour with very strict, extreme rules. Hence the term extremist. 

IanExMachina

^^ Yours seems quite a mild libertarianism.

(What kind of laws would go according to you?)

ClockworkUniverse

Libertarianism is an ethos, a codified standard of behaviour with very strict, extreme rules. Hence the term extremist.

Well, as I said, a lot of libertarians (or at least, a lot of what I would consider libertarians) just support a move in that direction from the current norm.

Argh, I keep getting ninja'd.

^The kinds of laws that would go include purely religious laws and laws that restrict rights that don't hurt people other than those doing them. Hard to go into specifics beyond that without textwalling you guys.

Tnu1138

I honestly don't think there should be a state economy you see there's a difference between State Capitalism and Anarcho-capitalism or State socialism and anarcho-socialism the difference being mostly that the state variants are actually forms of Corporatism where the state gives backing and support through certain favors and privileges The government (and by extension the NHS in Great Britain for example) is just one big corporation that forces everyone to buy its products and creates a state manted monopoly.