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"Men's Rights Movement" and Misogyny

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Comments

  • GelzoGelzo
    Pony Sleuth
    Claiming that the sexes should be considered to have equal worth isn't the same as claiming they have equal attributes in all things or should be forced into the same roles.

    Granted, I personally think that most cultures should be a good deal more open to the notion that certain individuals are better suited to roles that conflict with what their gender roles ostensibly ought to be.
  • RottweilerRottweiler
    Inside, too dark to read
    Granted, I personally think that most cultures should be a good deal
    more open to the notion that certain individuals are better suited to
    roles that conflict with what their gender roles ostensibly ought to be.

    Agreed.
  • Wicked223Wicked223
    We Played Some Open Chords and Rejoiced, For the Earth Had Circled the Sun Yet Another Year
    That is the most androgynous portrait of a women I've ever seen...
  • BradamanteBradamante
    Then
    you need to go back and dispute my point that their customs are finely
    adapted to their cult(ure) and socioeconomic conditions, such that the
    only way to change a custom without making life worse is to leave the
    nomadic herding lifestyle or leave their religion.

    You didn't substantiate that claim in the first place. What makes you think that the conditions under which their traditions developed are still relevant?
  • IanExMachinaIanExMachina
    I am Dr. Ned who is totally not Dr. Zed in disguise.
    ^^^ Butterface.

    Also Islam does not always equal sexual inequality, it depends on different interpretations. In the same way you have moderate and fanatical muslims.
  • RottweilerRottweiler
    Inside, too dark to read
    @Bradamante: You didn't substantiate that claim in the first place. What makes you
    think that the conditions under which their traditions developed are
    still relevant?

    T    he fact that they still live under the socioeconomic conditions of pastoral nomads.

    There's no reason to think that "But this is the 21st century!" logically necessitates the eradication of old customs among people living under old socioeconomic conditions, any more than "But this is the first Sunday of May!" does.

    @Ian: Please don't turn this into a "moderate Muslims" argument. Bedouin folkways are neither inherently "fanatical" or "moderate", but are the result of complex interaction between an Islamic worldview, period, and particular socioeconomic conditions.
  • IanExMachinaIanExMachina
    I am Dr. Ned who is totally not Dr. Zed in disguise.
    ^
    I was only responding to the comment you made: 
    "So ideally, Bedouins would be converted from Islam to a cult that preaches gender equality."

    Which looks like it means that you Islam is incompatible with gender equality.
  • RottweilerRottweiler
    edited 2011-05-01 19:19:48
    Inside, too dark to read
    @Ian: Do you really want this derail?

    The Quran itself places different duties on men and women. Even if it didn't, the Quran is not the sole source of doctrine. There are also the hadith and biography of the Prophet.

    Furthermore, it's generally reckoned as heresy among Sunnis to interpret the scriptures using individual reason. That's called ijtihad, and the gates of ijtihad are closed (note that not all heretics are progressive: militants have also reopened the gates).
  • IanExMachinaIanExMachina
    I am Dr. Ned who is totally not Dr. Zed in disguise.
    ^Honestly I'm fine for debating gender equality in the Quran/Islam right now.

    My only statement is not all those who believe in Islam are for gender inequality.
  • RottweilerRottweiler
    Inside, too dark to read
    @Ian: Yes, especially those influenced by liberalism who aren't very pious. They're moderately Muslim, in other words.
  • IanExMachinaIanExMachina
    I am Dr. Ned who is totally not Dr. Zed in disguise.
    Fair enough.

    I was walking past my local community board the other day, where I spotted a sign that said,

    'Women Against Sexism Workshop'.

    I thought, "Workshop? That's no place for a woman."
  • CommandoDudeCommandoDude
    CRIMINAL SCUM!
    "A lot of the double standards against men have their roots in sexism
    against women.  For instance, the disinclination to believe women are
    domestic abusers or commit violent crimes is not so very far removed
    from the notion that women are weak, delicate flowers who need to be
    protected."

    Because women DID used to be weak, delicate flowers who lived in a warrior society that DID need to be protected? Said "sexism against women" occurred during a different time when things were different, where physical strength was a much higher priority back then and only men really had that kind of strength.

    And then society evolved. And men didn't need to be huge strong brutes that needed to protect weak women from animals/other strong men. But the attitudes were still there. And suddenly what seemed like the natural order of things was now sexism because people didn't change with the times.

    So the idiotic idea that "Sexism against men today is their own fault for their sexism liek a long time ago" is worthless.

    That's not even taking into account that. Hey! It's not my fault how a bunch of guys acted 100 years ago. So why do I have to suffer sexism against me just because they were sexists?
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