"Men's Rights Movement" and Misogyny

AnnoyingPony

Okay, so I've noticed that there are quite a few tropers (and internet denizens in general) who identify themselves as "Men's Rights Activists" or something like that. While some of them have legitimate complaints, a lot of them either 

1) Don't understand what most feminists actually believe, or

2) Spout off how men actually have it worse than women in this world.

I consider myself to be a feminist because I believe that there is no reason for women and men to be treated differently; their worth and value are equal. Furthermore, there are still certain attitudes and prejudices in our society that I feel prevent women and men from having equal opportunities to do what they want. This doesn't just apply to American society, which is unbelievably progressive compared to some other nations which still practice female genital mutilation and have rampant domestic abuse. Feminism isn't about women totally pwning men all the time, feminism is about men and women having equal opportunities to do the same things and reap the same rewards. 

The thing is, in the feminist movement, there is every so often an odd duck (coughAndreaDworkincough) who preaches something patently ridiculous, such as her conviction that all porn is evil and demeaning to women. These rabid misandrists are quickly rooted out and exposed for the bigots they are. The vast majority of feminists disapprove of them and consider them counterproductive to the movement. 

Now, I've stumbled across some "Men's Rights" sites, and I can't exactly say the same about the consistency there in weeding out the st00pid. While I'm sure I'm not speaking for all "men's rights activists", as they like to call themselves, the vast majority have views ranging from "There are double standards in society that favor women and need to be corrected" to "All women are nagging harpies who should stay in the kitchen, pop out babies, and have their voice boxes removed at birth." (I'm not making the last thing up... http://www.somethingawful.com/d/weekend-web/spearhead-forum-misandry.php)

And the latter seem to be much more common than the former. In general, the label of "men's rights" seems to be a hygienic label for "misogyny," similar to how "Holocaust revisionist" is what Holocaust denialists like to call themselves to sound more "proper." 

Begun, the flame war has... 

ninjaclown

MASCULINE RAEG. Ironically, as much as I do think men are treated unfairly sometimes, the more they complain the less I think of them.

┻━┻ ︵ ヽ(`Д´）╯︵ ┻━┻

who are you

Chagen

"Women should not be accorded any education"

WAT

TuefelHundenIV

With both groups it is always the assholes who are more noticeable.

Gelzo

I'm usually a bit suspect of anyone who, unprompted, feels the needs to identify themselves as a feminist or masculinist. I and I think most people in developed Western nations are for equal treatment of both sexes (the conflict I think being more about how to go about things with that ideal in mind rather than whether it should be held), and it feels strange to put a label on that, much less one that specifies the desire for equal treatment of a specific sex.

That said, I think equal treatment of men in the legal system should be as much of a concern as some of the other issues I would guess feminists are trying to address. I also don't see why it should conflict with those issues.

Icalasari

I was told feminism means equality for all groups

I mentally facepalmed at that as it should be, if anything, called something like equalism

Gelzo

Yeah, it made more sense to use that word for that meaning back when the idea was controversial. I don't see how it's worth keeping around for that purpose considering it's become pretty strongly associated with people wanting greater than equal rights for women.

BonSequitur

The word you're looking for is 'egalitarianism,' which a lot of people generally take to be a basic principle of movements such as feminism and LGBT rights. Feminists aren't a monolith, of course, but many or most will empathize with 'masculinist' causes like child custody equality and discrimination against men in certain professions, as those are usually viewed as being sexist as well as anything.

CommandoDude

"And the latter seem to be much more common than the former. In general,
the label of "men's rights" seems to be a hygienic label for "misogyny,""

The same of which can be said about Feminism. Considering how much publicity is taken up by radical feminist newspaper columns and websites like Jezebel.

"2) Spout off how men actually have it worse than women in this world."

I certainly can't speak for this in regards to the world. But in the US men are certainly worse off then women.

BonSequitur

RADICAL FEMINIST NEWSPAPER COLUMNS! And Jezebel.

Gelzo

^^"Certainly"? As in, one can be certain about this?

Hmm... Dunno about that.

AnnoyingPony

^^^ How, exactly, do men have it "worse off?"

CommandoDude

* Higher arrest, conviction, and incarceration rates based on being male.
* Lack of any paternity fraud laws.
* Lack of laws protecting men from domestic abuse.
* Lack of serious consideration for male victims of female abuse, esp by police.
* Sexist divorce and child custody courts.
* Distinct criminalization of men before being proven guilty.

As well as others. Those are simply the most glaring and worst offenders in our sexist justice system.

BonSequitur

• Men are more likely to commit crimes in the first place. This is a cultural effect, and indeed stems from sexism anyway, but young males are more likely to be criminals than women or older people.
• You can successfully sue for damages if you can prove someone knowingly falsely claimed child support. Fake paternity claims are easy enough to dispel nowadays anyway.
• There are domestic violence laws, and police services, in some jurisdictions that are specifically meant to protect women - because domestic abuse against women is more common. It is true that there is discrimination in the form that men generally feel pressured not to report domestic abuse, but domestic violence laws generally have gender-neutral wording (Or are read to protect both genders). Do you have counterexamples?
• Men aren't 'criminalised.' This is an issue with young people, the poor, and minorities.

There are specific instances in which men are treated unfairly or discriminated against, but it's ridiculous to claim they have it 'worse off.'

CommandoDude

* However. Men will still be suspected over a woman for a crime. He will be more likely to be convicted for that crime then a woman would be. And statistically will serve a longer sentence then a woman for the same crime under similar circumstances.
* However. Requesting a paternity claim is still a complicated business. Courts can and often do deny these claims to establish paternity.
* Wrong. Domestic abuse is JUST as commonly perpetrated by women, as by men, in fact, statistically, a slight margin higher by women. The is no Violence Against Men Act. The laws are 'generally worded' however, in any domestic dispute, women will be assumed to be the victim, especially with the propagation of that bogus claim that men are domestic abusers more often.

IanExMachina

Nthing the 'It should be called equalism/egalitarianism' part.

However to label and dismiss all men's rights activists due to a vocal minority would be as idiotic to dismiss all feminist's due to a vocal minority.

snowbull

"No two women may be standing together at any time"

This is the most WTF one for me. I just dont even get the rationale behind it.

Khwarizmi

I think it would be disrespectful to the movement's roots to declare "feminism" to be a bad word now.

A lot of the double standards against men have their roots in sexism against women.  For instance, the disinclination to believe women are domestic abusers or commit violent crimes is not so very far removed from the notion that women are weak, delicate flowers who need to be protected.  With that in mind, masculists and feminists who are seriously in favour of equality really ought to be on the same side.

Icalasari

^ Also parted rooted in guys have to be macho

Bradamante

The way I look at it is that the same double standards and attitudes towards men and women give rise to both misogyny and misandry. Women may be weak, delicate flowers (according to society), but men are dangerous creatures (again, according to society), for example.

When I was visiting the bedouins, the women were relatively sheltered. They had few rights and had to cover up everywhere. But the punishments for a man so much as looking at a woman who was someone else's wife were severe. The assumption that "men can't help themselves when they see a provocatively dressed woman" were in full swing there, and it led to negative consequences for men and negative consequences for women in equal measure.

Trash_Vortex

From what I've seen, feminism supports both men's and women's rights, and I've never run into any mythical misandrist radical feminists before.

Rottweiler

Women may be weak, delicate flowers (according to society), but men are
dangerous creatures (again, according to society), for example.

I'd say this is quite true, except for weak men. Unless they have a conscience instilled by their cult(ure), men of means (primordially, physical strength) selfishly take whatever they can get away with.

Has there ever been a time when there weren't bands of armed men who would rape women? Perhaps you should consider the possibility that those Bedouin customs are finely adapted to their environment, and any change in sex roles would be for the worse unless their socioeconomic conditions or cult(ure) changed.

Bradamante

@Rottweiler: If we're talking about domestic violence cases, which I was, then keep in mind that the fight does not always go to the strongest. Even the strongest body has its weak points, and a skilled combatant will be able to target those weak points. Plus, most female abusers are aware of their weakness, so they use weapons to even the odds.

It's true that men need conscience instilled in them by society, but so do women. And ideally, this conscience would tell them that people of equal worth and value should be treated as having such, by being given equal rights and opportunities.

Trash_Vortex

I'm not sure I agree about concience being instilled through society.

Bradamante

Good point trashy. I would say that having conscience is innate, but specifically what your conscience tells you is somewhat conditioned by society, although even in that, there are some universals.

Rottweiler

@Bradamante: It's true that men need conscience instilled in them by society, but so
do women. And ideally, this conscience would tell them that people of
equal worth and value should be treated as having such, by being given
equal rights and opportunities.

So ideally, Bedouins would be converted from Islam to a cult that preaches gender equality. Being converted, they would regard women equally fit for economic activities like herding camels and sheep by themselves, because they are equal in the abstract quality "worth". No herdsmen would ever overpower and rape them.

Well frankly, I'm skeptical that changing nomads' religion would eradicate the realities of force inherent in that lifestyle.

Wicked223

Why are we talking about an Arabic ethnic group again?

Rottweiler

@Wicked: Because Bradamante brought them up as a good example of how sexism should be eradicated for harming both sexes.

Bradamante

Did I ever say I wanted to convert them? No. I want to see some of their traditions reformed, not their religion overhauled or suppressed.

Worth isn't an abstract quality. A person's worth is in their impact on the world. Women are equal in worth to men because if either men or women were removed from the world, the impact would be the same: death of the species. Women are also equal to men in worth, in that, all other things being equal, women have the same capacity to do good as men, and the same capacity to do evil.

And I think that herdsmen who believed women to be their equals wouldn't rape a woman. This is based on the fact that one of the biggest risk factors for perpetrating sexual assault is living in a society that is heavily male-dominated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence#Social_norms

Rottweiler

Did I ever say I wanted to convert them? No. I want to see some of
their traditions reformed, not their religion overhauled or suppressed.

Then you need to go back and dispute my point that their customs are finely adapted to their cult(ure) and socioeconomic conditions, such that the only way to change a custom without making life worse is to leave the nomadic herding lifestyle or leave their religion.