9/11 was Unforgiveable. Opinion or Fact?

Vorpy

Answer the question please.

FrodoGoofballCoTV

Opinion.  One I happen to hold, but opinion nonetheless.

A fact would be who did it, how many people died, etc.

DonZabu

Therein lies another question: if it isn't a fact, and forgiving al-Quada for it was even conceivable, why in the hell should they be forgiven for it?

Gelzo

If at least one person has forgiven 9/11, the statement is proven false.

DonZabu

Well then why should a terrorist organization be forgiven for killing more than 6000 civilians in a single attack?

Gelzo

I don't know why you're asking this.

TheConductor

^ Because in their own misguided way they believed they were doing something good? I mean, from their perspective they attacked and killed a part of the biggest evil the world has ever seen, which is somewhat commendable when you think about it.

(Not that I endorse terrorism in any form, I'm just putting a spin on the argument)

Khwarizmi

It depends whether, by "unforgivable", you mean "something nobody could forgive" or "something really bloody awful which I don't think should be forgiven".  The former is probably false, but if true, would be a fact.  The latter is an opinion.

Elbeem

I personally don't see any particular reason why the people behind the attacks should be forgiven.

The problem is with those who choose not to "forgive" everyone of the same ethnicity as those behind the attacks. (If you're reading this: Hi, Mom.)

Khwarizmi

I suppose if you want a less prissy, less "academic" answer, then I don't see the point in forgiving them.  They're dead now, and it wasn't me they hurt, not directly.

Longfellow

Forigveness or non-forgiveness isn't the first thing I think of when I think of 9/11.

BaronGrackle

"Because in their own misguided way they believed they were doing something good?"

I can forgive them, but it has nothing to do with thinking there was any validity to their actions.

DonZabu

^ Tell me why you'd forgive them, then. I'm honestly curious.

BaronGrackle

Well, it can't be what we normally think of as forgiveness, right? I mean, for that you'd need the perpetrators to actually apologize or even feel bad for what they did--the actual participants are dead, while their supporters haven't exactly expressed regret. So I guess in a sense it's more of not carrying the hate around?

They're human, like all of us. They've made mistakes. They do evil things, without actually being evil beings. Maybe I'm still sketchy on the details of it all, but that's sort of how I approach it.

DonZabu

Oh, we're all human. Everyone makes mistakes. Some people cheat on their taxes, some people commit mass murder.

Longfellow

So mass murderers make bigger mistakes. They're still human.

DonZabu

Humans who killed 6000+ people.

BaronGrackle

Perhaps the use of the word "forgive" is misleading. I'd still expect the organizers to be punished. But... you know... probably not as cutthroat as some people.

glennmagusharvey

There are two definitions of "unforgiveable":

1. something that cannot be forgiven, cannot be given forgiveness.  Since the only known entities capable of forgiving, on this Earth, are humans, this would mean that it's something that no human has forgiven or will forgive.

2. something that should not be forgiven.

In the case of definition 1, this is a statement of fact.  And as I am pretty sure that there is at least one human here on Earth who has forgiven 9/11, therefore this fact is false.

In the case of definition 2, this is a statement of opinion.  Such statements, which are normative, are a matter of preference and cannot be falsified unless said preference is expressed in mathematical terms according to some more-or-less-arbitrarily-decided method.

DonZabu

So that basically means that Vorpy's question is self-defeating?

BaronGrackle

^ I think a lot of us have just automatically rephrased the question.

glennmagusharvey

BaronGrackle, your presence is needed in the postmodernism thread.