Postmodernism.

Chagen

I love PoMo, but the definition of it on Wikipedia is completely different from the TvTropes article on it. The wiki article makes no mention of the meta-humor the TvTropes article says PoMo is based on.

Vorpy

That's because Postmodernism is bullshit.

ClockworkUniverse

It's one of those words that's really vaguely defined to the point of not meaning much at all.

glennmagusharvey

I have a presentation on post-modernism.

It discussed the relevance of old dead white men, and queries the relevance of cute kitties.  The presentation was sponsored by Pen-Pen and an ATM, and Pikachu's research findings are supported by the Power Rangers in Space.

Chagen

INUH: Why does English have so many of those words?

Most of them seem to come from the internet age. It seems that the while many words slowly go through this "rising ambiguity through constant use" phase, the internet heavily boosts the rate of that to extremely quick speeds.

DYRE

PoMo

Khwarizmi

Postmodernism isn't based on metahumour.  Other way around.  And it's not bullshit, although it can involve copious amounts of the stuff.

Regardless, it certainly isn't meaningless, it's just incredibly hard to define because it denotes a broad cultural movement incorporating numerous, often quite complicated ideas (and because the boundaries between postmodernism and modernism are kind of vaguely defined).

And whoops, necro.  Sorry.

Noimporta

He is.

DonZabu

I much prefer dead white men to post-modernism.

Vorpy

I prefer necromodernism myself.

Ponicalica

The only thing the Alan Sokal hoax proves for sure is that Duke sucks.

(And that not having peer review leaves you vulnerable to hoaxes)

Vorpy

Nihilistic Postmodernism is useless. There's no point to it all.

Khwarizmi

Isn't that true of all nihilism, by definition?

But a lot of stuff gets called nihilism that isn't.  Like Derrida, he wasn't nihilistic, he was just incredibly (and deliberately) confusing.

DonZabu

^ I think that was meant to be a joke.

glennmagusharvey

@BaronGrackle, I think you need to defeat postmodernism.

BaronGrackle

Defeating postmodernism is easy. First, surprise it with a swift kick to the linguistic criticism. Then, administer a piledriver. As it's disoriented, move forward for the pin. One, two...

What's that? No, I don't think it's unclear at all. What do I mean by "surprise"? Well, it's a fairly straightforward concept. No, I don't think the definition varies depending on the culture. No, I don't think our sociological understanding of it changes over time. No, you know what? Forget the piledriver. Go to the Razor's Edge.

What? The Razor's Edge. Finishing move of Razor Ramon. What's that? Who the heck is Scott Hall? Outsider's Edge? Crucifix powerbomb? Look, don't muddle the issue; it's all the same! Just... just take it down!

Ughh. Postmodernism sucks, you guys.

BaronGrackle

<-- (Also agrees that nihilism is senseless, despite his devil's advocacy in that other thread.)

Khwarizmi

Postmodernism > Modernism, at any rate.

I rather like it.  It's better than "my opinion is objectively true, and all y'all's opinions are inherently and undeniably wrong, so there".  Or "everything can be sorted into exact, neat little categories".

Vorpy

I thought Postmodernism was "If you have to ask what it is, you can't be one."

Kind of like being a Operator Moderator on Something Awful.

Khwarizmi

No, postmodernism is a cultural movement.

I don't know what the word for what you said is, though I guess there probably is a word for it.

Vorpy

cultural movement.

What kind, exactly? Personal culture or worldwide?

Khwarizmi

Uh... arguably Western culture, but since transcending boundaries is a big part of it, worldwide, I guess.

GLORIOUSLeader

But is it not true that sticking a big chunk of fluorescent black tiling and calling it a building in the middle of, say, Medina would be called "post-modernism", but doing the same thing in Amsterdam would provoke cries of "Okay, can't we learn to use the fucking color blue?" 

Khwarizmi

IDK.  I don't know a lot about architecture, but I've always felt that the ugliness of modernist and postmodernist architecture tends to depend a lot on the context, anyway.  Architects ought to pay attention to the location in which the proposed building is going to be built.

Chagen

So...what is all that weird meta-humor that TvTropes says PoMo is? Because I love that, and I use it alot. Better Than A Bare Bulb is one of my favorite tropes.

BaronGrackle

Ick, relativism. Relativism is no fun. You all know the story of the blind men and the elephant? Wikipedia gives me this version from Ramakrishna Paramahamsa: "
"A number of blind men came to an elephant. Somebody told them that it was an elephant. The blind men asked, ‘What is the elephant like?’ and they began to touch its body. One of them said: 'It is like a pillar.' This blind man had only touched its leg. Another man said, ‘The elephant is like a husking basket.’ This person had only touched its ears. Similarly, he who touched its trunk or its belly talked of it differently. In the same way, he who has seen the Lord in a particular way limits the..."

Yeah yeah, I'm gonna stop you right there Ramakrishna. Because the guy who said the elephant is like a pillar, is wrong. And the guy who said the elephant is like a husking basket, is wrong. And the guy who touches the ears and say the elephant is like a giant soft ear, is wrong. And the guy who touches the trunk and says the elephant is like a snake or some garbage like that, is wrong. And the guy who touches the belly and says the elephant is like a big bouncy ball of fat, is also wrong. They're all wrong. But if one of them touches the trunk, the legs, the belly, etc. and can tell us what the animal looks like, then he's on the right track. And if one of them learns the elephant's living habits and biology and such, then he understands the elephant even better. But when we take the elephant around the world, to different cultures, it always remains a freaking elephant. Relativism, bah.

Chagen

Sorry, but Relativism exists, if in small amounts. You seem to be a Catholic, please tell me you don't believe in that Absolutionism bullshit.

BaronGrackle

^ Yes, Relativism exists. Relativism certainly exists. If someone says that Relativism does not exist, then that person is objectively wrong... it doesn't vary depending on the culture or situation.

EDIT: You don't have to be a Catholic or even religious to believe in absolute truth. In fact, a lot of the antitheists seem to lean in this direction. I think I'm right. They think they're right. But we both know that both of us can't be right.

Khwarizmi

That elephant analogy is dreadful.  Yes, it's still an elephant no matter what part of it each man touches.  That's because they are a bunch of blind guys feeling up an actual large animal.  That's not what relativism actually is, not in the sense that we were talking about, and that's not how it works.  It deals in values and philosophies, things that can't be disproven so easily, arguably can't even be objectively true or false because it simply doesn't make sense to assert them to be so (that's the subjectivist stance).

A building that looks ugly in one context may not look ugly in another, due to the extent to which it clashes with or complements the surroundings.  This is how I have always seen the world.  It's like how a Hawaiian shirt looks alright when you're on holiday but not when you are attending a funeral.

Although I disagree anyway, since who's to say our perception of reality is more correct than the blind men's?  Both could be utterly wrong, for all we know.

Edit: As for religious people and antitheists, I disagree there as well.  If a religious person says "God exists" and an antitheist says "We can't know that, and it's dangerous to make wild assumptions", those statements don't actually contradict one another.  Both could potentially be true.

BaronGrackle

Oh, I'll agree that some things are subjective. I agree that the ugliness of a building or anything can't be definitive. Or that a Hawaiian shirt is more appropriate on vacation than at a funeral, or even that there might be some culture out there that would consider such a shirt appropriate at a funeral. It's only when the relativism gets applied to everything... a flat basketball is a poor tool for playing a basketball game, for example. And pressing "enter" on this site is a poor way to execute a single space, as opposed to holding "shift" and pressing "enter", as I have recently learned.

EDIT: ^ That example uses an agnostic version, while mine assumed an atheist version. If a religious person says "God exists, he is the only true God, and His way is the best way of life for individuals and society", while another person says "God does not exist, and belief in such a thing is dangerous for society" while another says "God exists with many other gods, and they play sports with each other, and I'm going to support the deity I think is best at cloudhockey", then all three of them cannot potentially be true.

Khwarizmi

Many atheists are also agnostic.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  I was referring to the brand of antitheism I have most commonly encountered.

I guess my own religious views are probably somewhat postmodern, since I don't really regard atheism and theism as exact opposites.  I think they can be compatible, depending on your view of belief and of god.

But yeah, OK, I will concede that I have no intention of playing basketball with a flat ball, and that I don't believe it would work if I tried.