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I think a lot of people misuse "Moral Event Horizon", and IJBM

Here's how I understood the trope when I first read about it: it's when the villain does something really, really, REALLY horrible which makes it impossible for them to ever be redeemed and become a good guy. It's worse than dog-kicking, it's worse than killing one person or twenty people, hell, it's worse than Darth Vader slaughtering all of the Jedi because Darth Vader was eventually redeemed. To me, if somebody crosses the Moral Event Horizon, they're beyond redemption. Even if they want to turn over a new leaf down the road, nobody can ever forgive them for what they did before.

It's gotta be something really evil such as, say, having your daughter burned at the stake as part of a dark ritual to ensure your victory in an upcoming battle.

So when I look at a work's page and see that people have written things like (to use an example which I'm positive will not include spoilers for anybody because everybody knows this one) "Brutus crossed it when he stabbed Caesar", it bugs me. Yeah, that was a betrayal and a cold-blooded murder, but it doesn't mean that Brutus can't ever atone for his actions of that he's too far along the path of evil to ever turn back. It's been ages since I read that play, but IIRC Brutus felt guilty about it afterwards.

Anyway, for a lot of people it seems like crossing the Moral Event Horizon is just whenever a previously good character does something bad unexpectedly, and in my opinion it's supposed to be worse than that.
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Comments

  • I hope it's virtue signalling. Say, Bob puts a character on said page because, say, the source of his powers comes from factory farming. Bob doesn't even object that much to factory farming, but he knows Alice is a staunch carnist and he hates Alice, and knows she is in the fandom, so you can use it as a twofold club against her, and also rile other people up to hate on Alice.
  • "you duck spawn, refined creature, you try to be cynical, yokel, but all that comes out of it is that you're a dunce!!!!! you duck plug!"
    I recently discovered "The Dragon" actually isn't the same as "the Big Bad's right hand henchman".
  • Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    lrdgck wrote: »
    I recently discovered "The Dragon" actually isn't the same as "the Big Bad's right hand henchman".



    Wait, it isn't?

    Well, whatever.  I never liked the trope name "The Dragon" anyway.
  • edited 2016-02-08 17:45:43
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    lrdgck wrote: »
    I recently discovered "The Dragon" actually isn't the same as "the Big Bad's right hand henchman".



    Wait, it isn't?

    A person or monster The Hero has to get past to get at the Big Bad. Much of the time, but not necessarily, the Big Bad's
    top enforcer. He, she or it embodies a narrative trope: the penultimate
    challenge that the hero must face before confronting the Big Bad. This
    challenge will test their worthiness in some fundamental way.


    Oh.  Well, not exactly the same, but frequently so.

    Well, whatever.  I never liked the trope name "The Dragon" anyway.



    See, it's stuff like this, that I think about it, and then I immediately think, that name sucks, I should propose a rename.

    If this were 2009, I would immediately head to the rename forum (or whatever it's called now) and propose a rename, in this case on the basis that the term means something pretty specific outside of TV Tropes (i.e. a usually large reptilian creature of legendary status, of either of two designs depending on geographic origin), and also suggests nothing about the trope itself except possibly in a few specific stories, whereas even western dragons specifically are generally regarded as the primary antagonist with their tendency to burninate countrysides, kidnap damsels, and hoard treasure, rather than as a secondary antagonist to be overcome before facing the primary one.  So it has a common definition that's off the mark, and also a common narrative usage that's also off the mark.  Really the only place "The Dragon" has the meaning given in TVT is...well, TVT.

    Then everyone would just shoot down my rename proposal, and you'd have "rename conservatives" telling me that it's already been in use for how long, and it's got so many wicks and inbound links, and so it just can't be changed.

    Fuck them.



    Edit: Well, actually, should I get involved in a rename debate on TVT?  Like, now?  On this trope name?
  • "you duck spawn, refined creature, you try to be cynical, yokel, but all that comes out of it is that you're a dunce!!!!! you duck plug!"

    You can try.

    I vaguely remember it being stated somewhere to be derived from that "Hero's Journey" stuff, but I don't remember if it was taken from there, or just that a similar concept shows up.

  • Coincidences. Just two days ago for the first time in ages to add some stuff I noticed was missing from one of my (now rare) visit to the main wiki, which made me think about a lot of stuff there:

    OP: I think you're falling for The Same But More. Whatever the definition of a trope is, it must be qualitatively different from whatever already exists.

    As for TVT...

    I remember not liking the fact that SPOON(s?) won the naming war over FORKS. I usually accepted renames "for the greater good", but can't say I didn't lament seeing some of those names go. That and other stuff made me feel like I was being left out.

    (That said, I always thought it was weird how many of us put so much importance in names, including myself, oddly enough. And yeah, unless I'm missing something, The Dragon is a terrible name.)

    Related to the above, I've noticed lots of newer tropers (who aren't new at all by now) who treat the way things were done with disdain. The site is what it is nowadays thanks to the successes and failures of the past, so respect your history damnit.

    I also remember lamenting the fact that by the time I left TVT, there were a bunch of tropes I thought of but never put through YKTTW, and more that I put on YKTTW but never launched. It made me feel that I failed my duty as a troper (but not enough to do something about it).

    And I've also noticed how there's no collective consciousness anymore that IJBM ever existed. It feels kind of weird.

    I wonder if I'm getting old.
  • You're not getting old.  The people that cared about IJBM were either banned for usually bullshit reasons or dropped off the map over time as the rest of the community got more toxic and echo-chambery.  IJBM was no paradise, but it was no modern-day OTC.
  • Inspected a few threads most likely to be volatile, and was flabbergasted they've got a Sexism and Men's Issues thread that seems pretty okay, with a fair number of participants of either gender (maybe my standards are just hopelessly lowered due to spending too much time on hellhole websites). 
  • edited 2016-02-08 21:09:06
    ^^ I don't mean just the IJBM thing, I mean the whole post, along with the more generalized notion that I feel from personal experience how much the world has been changing.

    And yeah, nowadays OTC is actually pretty decent. It took at least two huge drama incidents and active mod+community work towards making the place less horrible, but the result shows.
  • BeeBee
    edited 2016-02-08 21:21:38
    The way they did it was basically just banning or alienating whoever conflicted with the echo chamber, whether or not they could back themselves up.  I mean shit, Fighteer threatened to ban me once for "arguing in bad faith" when I contradicted his Hillary worship with a point-by-point rebuttal and almost a dozen sources.
  • Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    Bee wrote: »
    The way they did it was basically just banning or
    alienating whoever conflicted with the echo chamber, whether or not they
    could back themselves up.  I mean shit, Fighteer threatened to ban me
    once for "arguing in bad faith" when I contradicted his Hillary worship
    with a point-by-point rebuttal and almost a dozen sources.



    Fighteer's strong opinionatedness makes him unfit for the mod post, honestly.  If I were a community manager I'd probably prefer to pick someone who's less likely to end up being personally involved in arguments like that, because it's honestly awkward to try to moderate an argument that you also act/seem like you have a stake in.


    And I've also noticed how there's no collective consciousness anymore that IJBM ever existed. It feels kind of weird.


    I think my sig still advertises IJBM.

    I remember when Fast Eddie was unhappy that it did, but somehow (I forget how) I convinced him to allow it.  Probably something along the lines of "it's just there".

    Over the years I don't think anyone's actually found this site through that sig link and then joined, anyway.  Heh.

    I also don't post much on TVT anymore.  Just a handful of series-specific threads scattered around and a handful of OTC threads.
  • Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    Incidentally, TVT just launched a new site version.
  • edited 2016-02-08 22:56:27
    "you duck spawn, refined creature, you try to be cynical, yokel, but all that comes out of it is that you're a dunce!!!!! you duck plug!"
    Fighteer threatened to ban me once for "arguing in bad faith"
    Fighteer

    Here's your problem. You stepped on the wrong toes.

    Apart from that, I've been under an impression that there is a notable diversity in viewpoints, at least in the area of international politics. Although, that might just mean a) 
    there's
    too many non-Americans to just ban them all, b) Fighteer and his ilk is generally uninterested (as a participator) in the threads where this diversity flourishes (in other words: the topics raised therein rarely intersect with his personal wonks). 

    You know what? I think I still view Anglophonic forums through the lens of NationStates, where I haven't been actively posting since, dunno, 2006? Compared to it back then, to call TVT an echo chamber would be like calling a kid with a sling an armed assailant. So, seeing forums where Kermit Gosnell actually isn't regarded as an altruistic medical professional was a bit of a positive shock to me.

    Oh, and by the way. TVT community these days seems to have got over these silly fads. You know, like LessWrong was at first, then feels like everybody fapped to Paul Krugman for quite a while. It seems there hasn't been anything of that sort for long enough to notice.

    --edit--

    Oh, and by the way (x2). Once in a while I edit the wiki, or browse the wiki for that matter, but I don't post on the fora anymore (sometimes I read a thread or two for what must be some kind of masochistic pleasure). I've taken a bit of a personal challenge before leaving, too. (For those who use "search posts by Troper".)

    In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have written that review, but I was in a bad mood, and wanted to leave a token parting fuck-you.


    Heh heh.

  • The way they did it was basically just banning or alienating whoever conflicted with the echo chamber, whether or not they could back themselves up.  I mean shit, Fighteer threatened to ban me once for "arguing in bad faith" when I contradicted his Hillary worship with a point-by-point rebuttal and almost a dozen sources.

    I see. Figures.

    And yeah, Fighteer should, like, chill or something.

    I think my sig still advertises IJBM. (...) Over the years I don't think anyone's actually found this site through that sig link and then joined, anyway.  Heh.

    *checks* so does mine. I don't think it worked, either. Though it should've, I remember for our first year one of our posters' first comments would be something along the lines of "I would've joined earlier if I had knew this place existed".

    Incidentally, does anyone know what happened to the no-negativity rule/atmosphere on the forum? I remember it caused a bunch of problems down the line (and that it was implemented right after promising not to), but I wonder how it is now.

    Nowadays I check about five forum threads from my watchlist, and once in a blue moon I check the main wiki looking for something specific. I made a work page a couple months ago, tho.
  • Over the years I don't think anyone's actually found this site through that sig link and then joined, anyway.  Heh.
    Actually I think that's how I found it way back when. Granted, we're talking a week or two after the site started, so probably not quite what you had in mind.

    lrdgck wrote: »
    You know what? I think I still view Anglophonic
    forums through the lens of NationStates, where I haven't been actively
    posting since, dunno, 2006? Compared to it back then, to call TVT an
    echo chamber would be like calling a kid with a sling an armed
    assailant. So, seeing forums where Kermit Gosnell actually isn't
    regarded as an altruistic medical professional was a bit of a positive
    shock to me.
    Holy shit, I had no idea you came from there. I didn't hang out much on the main Jolt boards, but NationStates was my life for a while.
  • lrdgck wrote: »
    I recently discovered "The Dragon" actually isn't the same as "the Big Bad's right hand henchman".
     


    I hadn't known about that. Looking at the page just now, it seems like sometimes that's what The Dragon is, but not always. It could be Vader to Palpatine like the current page image, sure, but it could also be a literal giant fire-breathing dragon guarding the door to the villain's throne room. 

    Incidentally, TVT just launched a new site version.

    Can't say I'm a fan of the new look.

    I mean shit, Fighteer threatened to ban me once for "arguing in bad faith" when I contradicted his Hillary worship with a point-by-point rebuttal and almost a dozen sources.

    Oh jeez, it's a good thing I don't post in On-Topic any more, because my opinion of Hillary has nose-dived in the last several years. In a nutshell, I decided I was liberal back when it seemed liberals were all anti-war and conservatives (well, neocons anyway) were all pro-war. But these days some Democrats have turned out to be hawks in addition to most of the Republicans, so I'm not gonna support somebody just because they have a "D" next to their name. Hillary just has a "D" next to her name.

    In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have written that review, but I was in a bad mood, and wanted to leave a token parting fuck-you.

    I understand, believe me. The site has its problems. Now maybe one could argue that it's inevitable if you have a forum with that many people posting that there are gonna be a fair number of assholes and that dealing with all of those will stress the mods out and cause them to make bad decisions, but they're still bad decisions, and Fighteer is still making them.

    I realize I'm not talking about the original topic btw, but I'm fine talking about this. There's still a lot of stuff on TVT that's fun or interesting to read and there are still people in the forums that are nice to talk to, so I don't feel that the site's 100% shit. Having said that, there is still an excess of shit, and I desire 0% shit, or at least a much lower percentage.

  • edited 2016-02-09 13:56:06

    I see. Figures.

    And yeah, Fighteer should, like, chill or something.
     

    Yes.


    Incidentally, does anyone know what happened to the no-negativity rule/atmosphere on the forum? 


    I've been fortunate enough to not get into any ugly arguments there in a long time, so I don't know. As far as the great unwashed masses who are not mods are concerned, negativity can probably get you banned. (If you're the one with the banning power, of course, then you can be as negative as you want. >_> ) One guy I know recently got banned for getting into arguments, and I don't know if he'd be comfortable with my mentioning him by name or not, so I won't. But I did recommend this site and HH to him.
  • edited 2016-02-09 22:40:21
    Diet NEET
    Just thinking: if you want to incite the banhammer, a good way to do it would be to move all the examples you don't think fit on the Moral Event Horizon page to a new one titled Moron Event Horizon (don't do this, IA does not encourage web vandalism, the name just rolls off the tongue so delightfully). 

    Edit: apparently it already exists in draft form- http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=wkfxqf1nnex7ez5gynmiw4mp
  • Just thinking: if you want to incite the banhammer, a good way to do it would be to move all the examples you don't think fit on the Moral Event Horizon page to a new one titled Moron Event Horizon (don't do this, IA does not encourage web vandalism, the name just rolls off the tongue so delightfully). 



    Hmm, that could perhaps be a whole new trope of its own...

    "Characters do stupid things sometimes, but the Moron Event Horizon is more than just that. When somebody crosses the Moron Event Horizon, they have done something so unbelievably idiotic and boneheaded that they will Never Live It Down. They are known forever afterwards as that fucking moron who did that fucking moronic thing, regardless of how many good and smart decisions they may subsequently make."

    :p
  • ☭Unstoppable Sex Goddess☭
    Moral Event Horizons are different from story to story. After all, that would make some PG/PG-13 movies or younger audience works incapable of acquiring the amount of "irredeemable volatile acts" to be part of the Moral Event Horizon.

    Some of them are silly (Mr. Krabs being a CompleteMonster) but some of them do make sense to the story _____ I actually can't think of any examples that I would place as a MEvH moment.
  • edited 2016-02-10 02:09:15
    ☭Unstoppable Sex Goddess☭
    Also it seems like most TVT pages lost the silly 4th wall leaningness of most pages and were converted to "Post Double Standard & Unfortunate Implications on every page, somehow, YOU MUST REMIND THE READERS THAT THE TRANSGENDERS ARE HAVING A TOUGH TIME!"

    Like, what the fuck does that have to do with glowing swords? Or an ancient order of heroes? OH DURR UNFORTUNATE IMPLICATIONS, there be no girls in your Jedi alliance! Black men aren't represented! Traditional male values are enforced in this dimension! unfortunate implicationsunfortunate implicationsunfortunate implicationsunfortunate implications

    Hey asshole, the only assholes implying any of that shit aren't on the wiki anyway, which just leaves YOU. How about you quit clicking on that EDIT button until you can write something whimsical and entertaining? You fucking equal-to-humanity-in-every-way son of an agendered stereo-fucking cuckhold dragon fuckwaste?
  • "you duck spawn, refined creature, you try to be cynical, yokel, but all that comes out of it is that you're a dunce!!!!! you duck plug!"

    Heh, funny you mention that, I remember an example that struck me as particularly dumb, in an entry on Papers, Please. You know, the game where you play as a low-level bureaucrat in a totalitarian state and people come to you with sometimes hilariously badly forged papers, up to listing the wrong sex. And now you are triggered, I guess. Hmm. But you know, at the moment I don't remember many examples, although I'm pretty sure I cringed multiple times reading YMMV entries.

  • He who laments and can't let go of the past is forever doomed to solitude.
    I'm enjoying in schadenfreude the Nihilus1 person in otc, they sure ruffle Fighteer's feathers. Also, watching progressives linking articles lauding maduro and chavez women's rights record is worth a sardonic laugh.
  • edited 2016-02-12 22:56:50
    To be fair, women's rights is (AFAIK) not something they've fucked up. (Unless we're counting people-in-general rights issues as women's rights issues.) That, and they seem fond of putting women in important apparatchik positions (electoral rectors, Tribunal president, general prosecutor, etc.)

    Edit: Oh yeah, there's also the let's-use-women's-rights-to-fuck-up-the-MUD's-candidacies thing.
  • He who laments and can't let go of the past is forever doomed to solitude.
    We do that too, female VP/chancellor, greatly increased female legislative presence, femicide laws, and former female P. We've yet to turn into Bolsheviks to accomplish that. It's LGBT rights where we lag.
  • At least (I assume) your prez. doesn't publicly call the opposing candidate a faggot.
  • He who laments and can't let go of the past is forever doomed to solitude.
    Ningun "marica" que yo sepa, our capital city mayor has a lesbian mom and that did get him more lgbt support. José Isabel Blandón.
  • "you duck spawn, refined creature, you try to be cynical, yokel, but all that comes out of it is that you're a dunce!!!!! you duck plug!"
    By the way, did any of you guys have that desire to mark yourself by launching a trope of your own? Back at the beginning of my TVT time, it felt like a natural thing to do. 
  • Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    lrdgck wrote: »
    By the way, did any of you guys have that desire to mark yourself by launching a trope of your own? Back at the beginning of my TVT time, it felt like a natural thing to do. 



    A bit, yeah.

    It comes with being invested in the community.

    (It goes away with becoming divested from it, as well.)
  • Trope launching was how I contributed the most, but not out of "leaving a mark", though I can't say I don't sometimes think of myself as the one who put example X in trope Y or things like that.

    Speaking of leaving marks, and only roughly related to TVT, I tried to import the "begin pages with a quote" thing to RationalWiki, but didn't manage to get to put too many quotes until the site went down and I left. Years later I check back and notice lots and lots of articles with quote headers that I didn't put in. I want to believe I'm the one who started that trend.
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