How hard it is to make a rules system for magic

ClockworkUniverse

Yeah, Harry Potter appears to have magic being formalized as a consequence of non-formalized magic having some truly horrifying results.

lrdgck

Vancian magic sounds fine when it's used the way I'm told it was supposed to be, that is, as spells that are prepared in advance for later use. I haven't read the original, but it sounds like it can be any kind of magic you like, with the caveat that you can prepare a spell for later.

ClockworkUniverse

Narratively I don't have much of a problem with it. It's a terrible game mechanic.

lrdgck

Haven't played much D&D, to be honest.

edit: oh right, save for all those licensed cRPGs...

All Nines

I'm still wondering how long it'll be before 13th Age is published in print. Oh, I guess it's set for release in April? Shweet.

Also, I wouldn't use "generic fantasy ripoff" as an excuse for a bad magic system. I also have to question why you specifically want to rip off established settings, unless it's supposed to be a satirical game (which is an impression I didn't get), and if you're playing it straight, I feel like a pre-made system would be better, with perhaps some houseruling based on your preferences.

DYRE

Narratively I don't have much of a problem with it. It's a terrible game mechanic.

I don't think that it's strictly a game mechanic per se...

Like... isn't Magic: the Gathering essentially based on a sort of Vancian magic, in that each card in your deck represents a spell (or, actually, I guess each card in your deck is just a card but it turns into a spell once you decide to put it in play or something, but the end result is the same) and of course you have to prepare your deck in advance?  But that's certainly not the same as D&D magic.  Unless the term specifically refers to D&D-esque implementations of the concept.

But, uh... I guess as far as RPGs go yeah, I'd probably agree.

Saigyouji

MtG is kinda different in that it needs card limits to function properly as a game. Like pretty much every TCG ever.

All Nines

Well, technically, anything that isn't a land is a spell until it resolves, at which point it either becomes a permanent or goes to the graveyard (generally). But that's way beside the point, and I have to admit that, while needing to accrue mana to cast spells makes some sort of sense, I didn't understand, flavor-wise, why a planeswalker couldn't just keep casting the spell they wanted and have every spell in the back of their mind (skilled players certainly know every spell in their deck well enough). I guess it would have to be Vancian casting, then.

Actually, the game didn't always have a 4-of limit on cards that aren't basic lands, but that caused issues with balance, or something. So, yeah, the Vancian casting in Magic, like with D&D, is for the sake of balance. Hypothetically.

Saigyouji

Actually, the game didn't always have a 4-of limit on cards that aren't basic lands, but that caused issues with balance, or something.

To be precise people made decks nearly entirely comprised of Black Lotuses/Moxes, and a few spells that could combo well. Which was bad.

All Nines

I figured it was something like that. I just didn't know how bad it was, but I figured it must have been pretty bad, even before Chancellor of the Dross was made.

Nyktos

The typical broken early deck was like twenty Lotus, twenty Timetwister, one Lightning Bolt, or something that effect.

Stormtroper

Now that I don't have to be the one to derail the thread to be about MtG, Alex, would cards' subtle interactions (such as cards with drawbacks, plus cards that turn these drawbacks into good things) count as what you called unpredictability? What about how some cards exist only for people to find combos with them?

MadassAlex

More or less. It's emergent gameplay, and that kind of thing is the result of a system that's both simple and versatile. Emergent gameplay works great for just about everything, but I think it's more critical when it comes to magic because of how inherently unpredictable that kind of gameplay is. 

The closest analogues in terms of singular spellcasting (rather than a whole scenario) would probably be the magic systems of World of Darkness and Riddle of Steel. In those systems, you don't so much have preset spells as you have a set of spell effects you can choose from, which can be combined as you see fit, with their difficulty and cost increasing as you do. Because, like MtG, they allow for so much creativity, there's inherent unpredictability in the systems.

That said, this is potentially true of many tabletop games, since they don't use a digital system to impose hard limitations on what can and cannot be done. All the same, all three games have emergent complexity built directly into them, so they would still allow for a great deal of creativity with hard limitations (such as being adapted into a computer game). 

Eelektross

My friends aren't familiar with any board games other than D&D. They're already running a D&D campaign (which I'm not in because frankly Vancian magic is shit) and they don't want another D&D campaign. We started this to catch a break from Vancian bullshit tedium in the first place.

Please don't do this. Do everyone a favor and at least try not to be generic.

Why not? I'm not exactly aiming for literary gold here: I just want to have some fun.

Otherwise why not just play in an established setting?  It'll save you effort and the end result will probably be better anyway.

Only two of us are familiar with anything that isn't standardized D&D setting, sorry.

Saigyouji

My friends aren't familiar with any board games other than D&D.

Not even Monopoly? :P

Eelektross

Can Uncle Pennybags cast Maximized Chain Lightning, Delayed Blast Fireball and Quickened Razor Blood and still have two spells per day left?

The answer to that question is the answer to yours.

ClockworkUniverse

In those systems, you don't so much have preset spells as you have a set of spell effects you can choose from, which can be combined as you see fit, with their difficulty and cost increasing as you do.

Huh. That's basically what I'm doing with Finesse.

Bastion

Only two of us are familiar with anything that isn't standardized D&D setting, sorry.

Can't be any more unfamiliar than something that didn't exist before, right?

It's a good point, though. This is what existing settings are for: so you don't have to reinvent the wheel every time you want to try something a little different. Try 4th edition if you don't want to deal with Vancian stuff and want something new, but familiar. Or if you don't want D&D, I hear a lot of good stuff about Dungeon World.

twenty Lotus, twenty Timetwister

That was a common deck? Those forty pieces of cardboard could literally have put me through college.

Eelektross

does any game have a magic overcharge meter? Basically no mp, but the more powerful the spell the more it fills up this bar. The bar empties by itself. The more full it is, the more likely the character suffers from a negative affect and the worse it is

Hey, that could work. Of course, I'll have to rework some bullshit about it in the lore, too.

And hell, it's just plain fun to bullshit up lore for a fantasy setting.

Eelektross

Another thing is that the "magic as knowledge" cliche appeals to me on an ideological level. I like knowing things. I like knowing how they work. My friends share the same philosophy because, hell, they were the first to introduce it to me.

Alternatively, instead of going "right-brain", you could go "left-brain"; magic as an extension of art and expression, with magical movements and inspiration and influential sorcerers.

Yeah, but a logical extension of that would be to have people who are innately talented at that sort of thing and don't need extensive training to become wizards. So basically D&D sorcerers.

And if you want me to include sorcerers, wouldn't that defeat the point of slowly moving away from D&D like you want me to?

 

Super Lazuli

mfw art requires innate talent

mfw people still buy into talent existing

mfw my expression doesn't actually change but it's a handy way to list things

Eelektross

mfw vague answers that don't actually contribute anything

Super Lazuli

it wasn't an answer to anything I was just reacting to what you said in your last post.

I don't have any ideas on how to resolve your tabletop problem. 

well I have one, but it involves explosions and cats. You don't want to hear that one.

Eelektross

See, this is what I talked about in the OP. Formulating a decent magic system that needs to be malleable enough for players to use it well is hard.

Eelektross

So here's what I've got grounded so far:

• 
  
  
  
  • Magic CANNOT restore others to life or heal wounds. This was to prevent death from becoming cheap. If a party member gets beat, I'll probably have to write in some "not quite dead" bullshit.
  
  
  • Magic CANNOT conjure money or anything else that would obviously render the setting inherently flawed.
  
  
  • Not just anyone can use magic, but everyone has the innate ability to do so. Unlocking one's capacity for magic requires intense study and meditation.
  
  
  • Mages are not born with innate knowledge of a spell, even if they can use magic. While whim magic is possible, the effects achieved by it are incredibly minor. Spells are like a focus through which magic flows: they require memorization initially, but after some time can be cast spontaneously.
  
  
  
  

ClockworkUniverse

> Magic CANNOT conjure money or anything else that would obviously render the setting inherently flawed.



Suggestion: select specific substances (gold and silver if you're boring, but ideally not) that, for whatever reason, cannot be made with magic. These naturally became the basis for the economy.

Nova

Magic CANNOT restore others to life or heal wounds. This was to prevent death from becoming cheap. If a party member gets beat, I'll probably have to write in some "not quite dead" bullshit.

There's pretty easy ways around that; just make resurrection really hard to do, but still possible. Then, if somebody dies, you even have another quest for everyone else to do.

Eelektross

Suggestion: select specific substances (gold and silver if you're boring, but ideally not) that, for whatever reason, cannot be made with magic. These naturally became the basis for the economy.

Would copper suffice? I suppose I can also limit gold and silver, but copper coins is fine with me.

There's pretty easy ways around that; just make resurrection really hard to do, but still possible.

Hm...well, I want to keep the setting as agnostic as possible, but would a "reverse time" thing suffice? 

ClockworkUniverse

I meant precious metals in general. They just see way too much use as currency, so shaking it up can help make a setting memorable.

Eelektross

Copper's a base metal...