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Comments
Hah, the sheer gall. I guess I didn't make myself clear enough, so let me make my stance crystal: This isn't something you can reduce down to just a ~disagreement over politics~. You are fundamentally questioning the validity of the very core of my identity. I have no interest in associating with someone who is willing to try and debate my humanity. I've been doing that for far too long already, and if the time has come to do whatever it takes to protect that which is important to me, so be it.
You implied that outside of social media nobody faced consequences or backlash for pushback against these things.
I don't think I do? I mean, something like 60% would be enough. People don't need to like you as long as they leave you alone and don't openly/overtly discriminate. There are no mainstream conservatives who decry The Homosexuals anymore.
I mean, you do have to understand that the primary beneficiary of social acceptance is gay people. Society gains nothing from more adults that aren't looking to reproduce. This is a massive cultural change that has occurred over about twenty years. Gay people can get married now.
CNN hosts LGBT+ Town Halls on cable TV and people applaud them for it. Nine year olds get on stage with Pete Buttigieg and declare themselves gay and people love it (regardless of the logic involved in how nine year olds know anything solid about sexuality). June (my birth month, sadly) has been commandeered as Pride Month across the Western World and no serious boycotts happened. In fact, the opposite has happened; people applaud it constantly. Straight guys in the public eye have to be "good allies" or they get booted from the Oscars for tweets from 2010.
Mario Lopez was almost ostracized from polite society once despite the many contributions he's made to many a gay (or bisexual) man's fantasies!
This is in a world where Barack Obama wasn't even pro-gay marriage when he ran for president the first time round!
You can always want more, but that just makes you a glutton.
I could totally 100% be friends with somebody who thought my sexuality wasn't real, or was a choice, or even just believed I had urges I shouldn't be indulging, or whatever (there are a million variations).
Because people in this world are many, and they have many a view. I'm okay as long as they don't force me into doing anything/abstaining from anything or try to force the government into arresting me. As long as they accept that I don't agree with them and that's okay too.
Anyhows, I've been thinking. You've changed, wings, and I have doubts it's for the better. You mentioned earlier that you learned not to let arguments get in the way of friendships, and I think whether you're applying that lesson now may not be more important than realizing why it seems you forgot it in the first place, I say that because a year or two ago you didn't seem to have trouble maintaining friendships while being argumentative, but now it seems it takes quite a lot of effort on part of the other to keep things going, that much is obvious with Glenn and the endless arguing, and I'd wagger it'd be the case with Saigyouji too if that (friend)ship hadn't sailed long ago, what with that lack of tact (I'm sure she has stronger words for that). There'll probably be more in the future.
So, what gives? I don't remember you pushing things so far for the sake of... whatever I put here will result in another tangent so I'll leave it at that, but I do want to note the discrepancy between what you say and what you do.
It's super late, I had things to do I'll probably end up not doing, but eh. Remember everyone, you get to read your posts however many times you need before hitting the Post Comment button.
What I meant was that social media greatly heightens attention to all this stuff, while it's probably not worth paying this much attention to.
And "we're not going to name this building after J. K. Rowling" (and in a country I don't live in) is honestly pretty bottom tier as far as stuff worth caring about.
So if you walk around town and 60% of the people are fine with your existence but 40% of the people give you the stinkeye and mutter uncharitable comments about you, that's good enough?
...are you seriously suggesting using procreative record (not just ability, but actual record) as the measure social worth of people?
...you are, sadly, continuing to vindicate my hunch that your impression (and interpretation) of my country seems to be based on being overloaded with information about social/cultural trends/fads/movements/branding, political opinions, and a bunch of gossip-type stuff involving "[person] did embarrassing/offensive thing!".
The world changed before I did. I've been watching things, since about 2016 when I noticed some of the gay bloggers I followed started calling themselves 'genderqueer'.
Even then, I thought it was a passing phase. That is, a trend. Something that would never enter the mainstream.
Then I watched slowly as it did, and basically I was in that position of that conservative guy or girl who dismisses something and then watches it enter the mainstream.
At first, for a few years, I let the cognitive dissonance of things keep me in place. I mean I didn't even think about anything. Then, in the middle of 2018, I started reading some C.H.Sommers.
I think that was just when James Lindsay had come to light too. The Sokal Squared thing had just happened, so there was a lot of hubbub with intellectuals and academia. It was a great time to be in the thick of it (much like now).
I found myself enraged, but I can't honestly bring myself to admit to what. It was a gross and embarrassing era I don't want to ever speak about aside from in confidence, in person, to somebody sworn to secrecy.
It wasn't anybody's fault. It wasn't Quillette's, it wasn't Reason's/Robby Soaves'. I'd overshot by several degrees from their message.
I knew the rage was wrong, stupid, and completely indefensible, so I tried to course correct. I subscribed to the New York Times and I'd read it every day. I mean, of course I identified with the way things were messaged. That was who I was, right?
But the message struck me as off, articles were written in ways that bent to a preset point rather than just stories being told. This happens, sometimes, with clear purpose; celebrity pieces on that girl from One Tree Hill joining The Hills have to be that way. But when you get more serious than that, you have to be honest.
Eventually, it got too much, so I quit in early June 2019. That... was a hard time for me.
Aside from NYT, I got my information from Deadline, the BBC, and other such places. I couldn't imagine those sources ever being wrong about something. Clearly it was my fault, I was failing to fix myself.
There were times where I actually stood still just thinking to myself; it's what everybody believes, right? Why can't I just go along with it?
After that, around July, I tried to shut up about things the way I used to before. I mean, in all honesty, before this whole thing I was toeing party lines I didn't believe in to start with. Maybe I did believe them at some point (but like, honestly, "accidental racism"*?), but I didn't know why.
Now, I actually have values I'd defend to my last breath. And I know why I defend them. That makes me very happy.
I keep saying I'll stop, but there's always something else, something I just have to mention. Maybe I should stop. I say it's okay that people disagree with me, but I have trouble stopping myself from at least letting them know what they disagree with.
I mean, if I'd had a me, maybe I'd have gotten here sooner.
The first day I ever questioned anything to the modern orthodoxy online was last October.
I hate to say this, but it's addictive. I've said before, I get why somebody would want to physically fight somebody else for no real reason now.
Anyways, earlier today, I kind of acknowledged that in these circles I'll probably always be alone in this.
And I think, you know, maybe there's a strain of truth in what you're saying. You're saying I should respect everybody else's opinions and leave them be, because I want to continue being friends with them.
I'm assuming that, like me, everybody should be okay with strains of thinking that disagree with them to significant dealbreaker-esque degrees. I mean, essentially that's what I'm pushing for.
The problem remains; if I don't express my disagreement where I feel it's necessary, then am I not being dishonest? I don't name-call, I will usually try and not target individuals but their ideas (last lapse was my "You're not a conservative, GMH" dig).
I thought very seriously about this early last year, and in all honesty my thoughts on this are very complex and I'm not sure I could ever explain them in a way that wouldn't take pages and pages of discussion.
*Also, Asher killed Emily Sinclair in season 2, so I was really wrong.
Double also, a few posts after this is my infamous (terrible) defense of historical inaccuracy and other things in terms of diversity for it's own sake. I'd just like to remind everybody that I took it back.
Huh this posts also mentions things. I thought I'd certainly never talked about this stuff so blatantly before:
To use an insane analogy, you can't be pushing against a wave generated by a giant cruise ship from your tiny canoe and still be shouting at the top of your lungs about how you too would be on that giant cruise ship but you decided to get off because you felt they weren't driving it right at all.
I don't know if I would have gone in this direction if things were different, but I'm very glad they did.
This guy I recognize. "Accidental racism" guy can stay on the cruise ship. And this isn't even my basically patchouli-era energy mode when I called Revenge -basically the only show on at the time that featured a bisexual character- inherently homophobic because I didn't like the way the relationship was portrayed (in all honesty I actually did like it but I thought it was probably wrong to).
I don't know how you get to feeling outraged at a shadowboxing opponent. It feels like you're sort of automatically running some social analysis perspective, which is the stuff about which people will write piles and piles of opinions on the internet which I never bother reading 99.999% of. And nowadays, instead of espousing it like you used to, you resent it, while I'm sitting here confused as to why it's even such a big deal. (Also, see comment at end of post.)
I'd say that was a mistake but not in the way you probably think it is.
There are a ton of instances where I disagree with people but don't mention it, or only mention it obliquely. It's not being dishonest; it's being strategic with choosing the battles I fight, because I lack the resources to fight and win every single battle.
Ironically, I'm surprised that you consider that a "lapse"; I didn't even bat an eye at it, and responded to it anyway. It'd probably be a more interesting line of conversation/argument if it weren't buried under the rest of this argument.
oh hey i got mentioned in this post
Probably because I try to boil things down to fundamentals to see what really is there at all and what only shows up when I add other layers to it.
The one constant seems to be that you form a lot of strong opinions on stuff, specifically with regards to social perspectives, and really feel the need to express them. Hence stuff you said before, and hence your backlash against your former self now.
You see, there's a fundamental misunderstanding going on here. I've disagreed with people over many a thing, up to and including, yes, politics, and I still consider them my closest friends. This isn't that. This runs far deeper.
Much like I am ill-inclined to be friends with somebody who just stabbed me in the face, I am just as ill-inclined to be friends with somebody who thinks that, by dint of the circumstances of their birth, that certain people deserve less rights. You're right: People are many, and as such, this isn't an either-or situation. I can befriend people who I enjoy talking to and don't hold views that I consider fundamentally and irreparably abhorrent. It is not difficult to find those people, not in the slightest.
You have a rose-tinted view of a world that never existed, a world that in all actuality was built upon the back of silencing minorities and punishing any who spoke up with consequences that were poor at best, and calamitous at worst.
Take your railing against non-binary folks, a concept that existed before either you or I was even born. Non-binary genders have taken many names over the years, but certainly they aren't remotely new. I first learned about them when I came out, over a decade ago, and they weren't new then either. The only difference is that there's greater visibility now.
And therein lies the rub. You want us out of sight, out of mind, all in service to some nebulous family values nonsense that was never a real thing in the first place, and then act confused when we push back against it. We're not going to stop fighting because you're uncomfortable that we dare to exist. We're not just going to lie down and say "oh well, someone doesn't like us, better give up, I guess!".
Just a word of friendly advice: I'd be wary of those face-eating leopards you're courting.
There was more I was supposed to post, about the "political" side of things, but I suppose it's not the right time, hopefully I won't lose the draft again. For now I'll keep this on a personal level.
I remember that accidental racism post, I thought it was odd but, like, so what? It wasn't a big deal at the time and it shouldn't let it drag you, all it means is that at some point your views on social justice got in the way of mind-reading someone's unconscious through their writing.
Also we've played games about finding "blackened" murderers who are represented by literally black people.
Anyhows, I guess I agree with that last paragraph in Glenn's post, you seem to be overly harsh on your past self, and I suspect that's having an influence in the views you currently hold. I'm not saying that. I'm aware of how silly I look telling you guys not to argue, I know it's unrealistic to expect your disagreements to simply disappear, and of course, the H word*. It's just that there's such a clear clash in how you two see it (you as a... sport?, Glenn as a chore) and the sort of ill it leads to (I'll keep talking on Glenn's behalf: these arguments are a lot of wasted effort for him) that I can't help but just telling you guys to stop, that's all I can think of.
Anyhows, if one of you can think of something else I'm willing to help, if anyone wants to vent or whatever my PM box is open, if I have to engage in these arguments I suppose I will, but it doesn't seem like this will sort out without external help.
.* Edit: Hugbox
I'm not sure what the "H word" is.
Anyway if we're taking our guesses at people's motives my guess is that fourteenwings doesn't see it as a sport either, but as a way to push back against social phenomena that he considers bad, and doing so is something he sees as necessary or a moral imperative of some sort.
To be fair, there's some of this for every person who'd participate in such an argument, and I think if this were someplace else, with more participants and/or less of a place that I hang out on, I'd probably just ignore this, but the fact that I do hang out here and we also have so few regulars means it looks kinda odd if I say nothing when I do have thoughts on it.
As for how much of a "chore" it is for me...there's different levels of effort I could use, and I think at first I was doing a very-high-effort "okay, let's sit down and let me try to consider all the dimensions to what you're saying and let me try to be accommodating", but that got tiring fast because it takes forever to write up, and also produces giant walls of replies which I'm then further obligated to reply to, in an endless cycle of replies. It's also become clear that it isn't the appropriate approach, since the opposing position I'm replying to is not "this annoys me" but rather "this is bad and wrong and I need to fight back against it".
At this point I've switched to a lower-effort approach that simply replies to whatever I have thoughts about when reading the thing.
Returning to an earlier point since Stormtroper highlighted it:
Well, I mean, just how "dealbreaker" can it get before it's a problem? Because at this point you've clearly indicated that you don't just have a passive disagreement with certain positions on certain issues that are relevant to this conversation, but are outright willing to fight to oppose those positions, on the basis that the world is going to hell in a handbasket if those positions you oppose win.
Really, Saigyouji's response is unsurprising, given that.
In reply to Saigyouji's post:
I agree with all of this, aside from the "came out" part because I'm not trans, and also substitute "several years" instead of "a decade".
The heavy public focus on these issues is certainly new, and the way people think about them and the language that people use to refer to them is also changing, but there are underlying factors are not new.
There certainly was a perception that certain things did not exist since they are not well-known, especially not under current names for things. Starting from this perception, the newly heavy focus can certainly be jarring for a person for whom these issues have no personal significance. (It certainly was jarring to me. Saigyouji probably remembers the arguments I had over this several years back.)
Heck, the recent protests over racism surprised even me, considering that I'm a person for whom racism does have personal significance.
If all we do is look at is this focus, at a superficial level, then we see a sudden shift in opinion and attention to stuff seems to have come out of fracking nowhere. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. One can resent the attention, but a lack of attention to the issue does not make the underlying issue disappear. Not everything in society has had enjoyed the comparative luxury of having multiple hogsheads worth of verbal discourse spilled on it in prominent public view - especially not on a persistent basis.
As for "hugbox"...haha I totally forgot about that word.
I'm honestly trying to stop this.
I never clocked this because I just assumed every tanned skin person in Danganronpa is Okinawan (which actually is a whole other issue considering the whole Okinawan independence/trying to create a separate cultural existence thing) or like, just tanned.
It's not backlash, I love that guy, he was just confused. I genuinely want to ask him things to understand that moment and the past better, but there's no time travel for that.
This was what I wrote before: You may be right. Well, I guess both as a sport and as the most serious important thing ever. I mean, there are days when the most important thing in my life is Shadowverse.
I think a better way to phrase it is: I enjoy the battle of ideas. Ideas just happen to be one of the most important things in my life. At times, I do find I loathe it, but as I've said I can rarely stop myself.
We (I and GMH) tried PMs once, it... uh... didn't work out? That's a nice way to put it.
I've already said that they've won. Which is probably why:
This is probably also related to what I said in the video game thread recently:
I don't hate these things. However, these are concepts that... well, they scare me. A lot of things are being whitewashed like this, and have been whitewashed like this in popular culture since probably before I was even born (at least the 60s).
Also, I can't do this trans debate anymore. I'm super sick of it, and I have been for a while (I only mentioned it here in regards to J.K.R.). I've been very thorough with my discussion of it from hijras to two-spirits to whatever else is out there. In all honesty I think I might be bored with it.
It's also clear with Saigyouji that the discussion is poking and prodding at emotions and there's no way I'm playing around with that.
I mean, these counters are super low-hanging fruit but I'm avoiding creating a giant wall of nonsense I don't really care about.
Which, like, is good of me, no?
Also I found this post when I was looking for the last big dust up I and GMH had over it.
Double Also I SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO THIS GUY!!
In all honesty what I said here sounds extremely blunt. I think if this were today I'd be more coy.
Actually if you can go from this post through IJBMU for a bit till today then you'll find basically a real-time version of what I wrote in prose above.
Anyways, I found the last big time we went over this stuff. It was so extensive it required separate headings for each issue.
Actually I'll address this directly too:
Saigyouji, you're allowed your opinion, thoughts and feelings. I can't change them or even directly affect your existence. I'm just a person you disagree with on the internet, and I believe that's fine.
You don't even need me, you have literally the UN, Stonewall*, GLAAD*, the HRC*, the SPLC, ACLU, Teen Vogue, Variety, Warner Bros., all mainstream media houses not Fox News and everybody else in power (including GMH, he's a mod here don'chya kno) who will agree with everything you said and think you wise for it.
Trying to fight me is literally that thing I mentioned; becoming a glutton for acceptance. You don't need my acceptance, especially since you don't even appear to like me.
*That's literally the whole gay trifecta.
Well, I'll give you credit for one thing, at least your unwillingness to understand the issue at hand was consistent to the very end.
This was never about gaining your acceptance. I knew that was a fruitless endeavor from the very beginning. I'm not stupid. I've been doing this for a long, long time, you're not the first, and you won't be the last.
This was about calling you out for what you are because nobody else would. I have my principles too, and to let you continue spewing your hate uncontested would have been a gross violation of them.
Honestly I'm disappointed in you more than anything, that you think so lowly of me that you think I'm some naive fool who thinks she can gain the acceptance of the whole world. I had at least hoped you had enough awareness to realise that I stopped caring about that a long time ago.
I'm proud of who I am, and I don't need the blessing of someone who sees me as less than human to reinforce that. The reason I'll keep on fighting you and people like you is because your ideals are actively dangerous to me and the people I care about, and to just stand by watching on the sidelines would be a dereliction of duty of the highest order.
Also besides Angie I guessed they were all tanned.
(Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not being terribly serious about all this, I just thought to bring it up due to the "accidental racism" thing.)
Spoilers:
Also ngl, I'm wondering something about the way this trans discussion has been going on but it's a terrible time to bring it up. I guess I'll ask later, maybe.
Edit: Killers, rather.
I stand corrected, I guess.
Yeah, it just devolved into an argument. Unsurprisingly.
To presume that things used to be fine and dandy is a similar sort of "whitewashing", just "whitewashing" different things.
The recent protests over racism are essentially protests over the whitewashing (no color wordplay intended, I swear, though the unintentional wordplay is acknowledged) of problems in the way policing has at various times been conducted.
You didn't seem to notice that I picked and snipped to find specific passages to endorse. Also yes I'm a mod but I also regularly let all sorts of content I disagree with stay up. Including your posts, lol.
(Also, why do those media houses even matter? I can go for weeks without coming into contact with any of them.)
Anyhow, more importantly, what are you treating this as, some sort of ideological turf war?
(...the answer to that question is probably yes, based on your earlier statement about ideas.)
...because that's not how other people are treating it. I'm treating this ideological turf war as a really unnecessary sideshow (which ideological turf wars mostly are, for people not directly connected with the issue, unless they decide to marry themselves to those ideological positions), and Saigyouji is (correct me if I'm wrong) treating it as a condemnation of her identity.
reply to Stormtroper's post
This shows up in the Orange Juice games -- in Flying Red Barrel, for the first level boss, the pirate captain's skin color is a sort of strange pale grey, while heroic characters have a typical peachy skin color. Ironically this persists into 100% Orange Juice, where he is no longer a villain (and he was a minor villain in the first place). However, some antagonists from other games (e.g. Star Breaker, Sweet Breaker, NoName) are also given a typical peachy skin color, so maybe this isn't the best place to find an example.
This won't cause him to put the "trans people have won" lie to rest. But I just wanted to put the reality of the situation here in the UK out in the open regardless.
Why yes, I am still bitter about how that situation was handled.
I realize posting this probably won't lead to anything productive, and if anything, will probably end up making the discussion less civil, but fuck it, I'm angry enough to not care.
But you don't get to lecture others about handling forum situations. You know what I'm talking about.
As for Earthlight_Ray, my hope was that I could keep her from some potentially very worrisome outcomes (or at least know if they were to happen), and perhaps ease her recovery, by being someone who didn't cut her out my life and thus being at the very least a backup communication channel, just in case.
But she got banned here eventually (I think I was the one who did it, along with telling her for the (n^2)th time to clean up her act). I did keep somewhat in touch with her on Discord for a while, as I ended up on her personal server (one of the way too many I've joined)...but eventually, ironically, she ended up cutting me me out of her life, by banning me from her server, essentially accusing me of disloyalty to her for refusing to condemn the people she held a grudge against.
Things didn't work out very well, I guess. At this point she probably holds a grudge against me as well.
Remember when we had a US politics thread?
Oh I'm assuming because being a killer is cool and edgy and that's always associated with albino-esque sociopaths like Accelerator from Index.
I think I've been pretty clear that I think the world is a mess, has always been a mess, and will never stop being a mess.
It has humans in it, after all.
It's joke, trying to lighten the mood and such.
I want to argue so bad and so hard but I will stop myself, so... uh... note my disagreement at least.
I also had some super relevant new information about recent topics I wanted to share but I should probably not toss jet fuel on the dumpster fire.
Somehow my potential reaction GIFs to this were both Piper (here's the other).
edit: This was probably a stupid thing of me to reveal, but whatever. I did technically give sufficient clues that someone might be able to guess what I mean. I think.
TL;DR version of the story:
For those unfamiliar with what's happening:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/welcome-to-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone-where-seattle-protesters-gather-without-police/
I would not suggest people congregate like this given COVID-19, but...well, they're gonna do what they're gonna do.
antifa"protesters" have taken over part of Seattle and declared it an autonomous zone.It's entirely peaceful aside from the sedition and stuff. It's just your average autonomous region established via an organized takeover of a police department, which Seattle police were told to abandon. Happens all the time! In warzones and failed states at least.
The Summer of Love except the S.P.D. can't get in to deal with multiple reported crimes. The Mayor of Seattle gets in to check out a "communal garden" that's just topsoil on top of cardboard, because somehow nobody in there has any idea what agriculture is.
Fox News is not the madness here. The broken window was certainly not photoshopped in.
At the very least, the gunman was definitely in the CHAZ?
Tell that to the priest who got caught in a communal chokehold.
A-NY-WAYS, GMH, do you actually ever want things in here to de-escalate?
Just a reminder; on the last page I linked to the Seattle Times' glowing report for this nonsense. Glowing. Free food, free everything! Because life is free, right?