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Anti abortion logic
Such as in here:
Comments
Not understanding policy is a common problem with people who are out pushing issues. On any side, on any issue. You see this with tea-partiers, or heck, most protesters. They have a policy opinion, but no actual policy position to back them up. Usually, as is the case here, they just haven't really thought through an issue to give you a specific answer.
That said, this problem is usually only common to mostly-lay grassroots activists; movement leaders are usually better prepared for these questions. For example, if you asked someone who was more involved in leadership roles in the anti-abortion movement, they would probably respond by telling you that the more effective action that they seek to enact is to make it more difficult to get abortions comfortably (and safely), thus discouraging women who want abortions from seeking them. On a tactical perspective, I agree that this approach is more effective--at least, more effective than shaming people into guilt.
That said, that also gets into the issue of whether the abortion is the fault of the woman or the abortion clinic. Targeting abortion clinics has been a favorite tactic of anti-abortion activists of all stripes (from the most reasonable to the most insanely violent), yet there's also a strongly-held opinion claiming that women should be personally responsible for choosing to have abortions. So which is it, people?
Third, as shown in this particular case, many people confuse legality with societal approval. Here, you saw one person clearly saying that if abortion is legal that somehow "means" that abortion is approved of by society. (I know she said "sanctioned", but "sanctioned" actually just means "legal"; that said, we know (and she would not dispute, I am sure) that what she meant is to say that making abortion legal would indicate approval of the practice.) Well, let me point out that speech saying that Hitler was a morally upright man is legal here in the United States. Does that mean our society approves of it?
Fourth, I'm not sure if there are any things that are illegal but have no penalty attached by design (rather than by policymaking mistake). However, there are almost certainly a lot of things that are illegal but allowed to continue anyway due to lack of enforcement (accidental or intentional).
Getting back to what these activists are trying to do, though: if you ask them about the perspective of a woman getting an abortion, then the most they can really talk about is shaming them. One irony is that the "God will punish you, and make you feel bad" argument doesn't really resonate with people who don't share their beliefs.
Me?
I don't believe life begins at conception. But when does it begin? That I don't know. And I have much more important things to worry about.
Bee it's been 2 civil posts. Hold off on the internet smug macros until after somebody acts like an idiot.
So, until the moment a disagreement appears.
No, the moment people start acting like idiots. If I meant when people started disagreeing with each other I would have said so.
Besides, disagreements in IJBM are much more mellow than in the rest of the internet, anyway.
Hmph, it already begins.
You do realize that y'all are not even arguing about abortion, but arguing about arguing about abortion.
>I don't believe life begins at conception. But when does it begin? That I don't know. And I have much more important things to worry about.
This is pretty much my stance.
That said, I think if you -really- wanted fewer abortions to happen you'd actually give more access to birth control but there you are.
There are things about abortion that personally make me uncomfortable but I get that their effect on me is negligible so I really shouldn't be that big a part of the dialogue.
My general belief is that once a child could, technically, survive on it's own (that is, without machinery) then it would be wrong to abort.
I know it's shoddy, and you could probably poke a whole bunch of holes in it...but I am not an expert on the subject and it's the best I can say.
I think that Colombian law on the case is pretty nice. Basically, if there are risks for the mother's life and abortion's the only option, then it's the duty of the doctor to abort.
There're also other scenarios in which an abortion is legally valid, such as in the case of rape. Unwanted consensual pregnancy's a bit more complicated, but I think (as in personal belief, not the actual law) it should be allowed.
with that said, I do think that this is a matter for people who understand how pregnancy and life works to discuss and not someone like me.
...oookay... not yet a mess...
So. In my view. I'm fine with law giving the option in case of risk to life, and I'm willing to look the other way in case of rape or shit like that. But, no to on demand. To choose any point between conception and birth would be an arbitrary choice. There. I said it. Pffffft.
I think that the Serbian law on abortion is quite fair - it's allowed until the tenth week, with exceptions in the cases of rape, incest, psychological trauma and extreme poverty, when there are no restrictions.
Overall, I think that it's plainly wrong to kill a fetus after its organism has developed enough for it to feel.
I don't know much about it, but if I were a medical professional or anything trying to form an opinion, I'd probably base my opinion on when the brain really starts to develop.
To me, abortion is one of those cases of measuring different evils. No matter what, you are preventing a potential life from occurring, so abortion ought to be handled with responsibility and consideration by any individual considering it. I support it as a legal right in general, although I don't much care for the details as I find other matters more pressing. It's probably better to prevent pregnancy in the first place with birth control methods, though, which I find to be pretty black-and-white -- birth control is just a good damn thing. You can't stop people from having sex, thank goodness, so giving people a means to prevent pregnancy seems like a pretty logical thing to me.
Irdgck - So it's better for a child to be born into a household that doesn't want it or can't support it because picking an arbitrary point is too sticky? Yeah you can make all the arguments about how they should have used birth control more or better birth control or what have you(probably conveniently ignoring the possibility of failure) but still you'd rather see scenarios where multiple real people are struggling instead of scenarios where a hypothetical person just doesn't get a chance to exist?
I'm with Conductor here, I believe abortion should be allowed for any reason at any time before the third trimester.
^^^ Pretty much how I feel about it.
I don't know how babby is formed, but I generally side with the pro-death camp because the anti-choice peeps are more annoying. Don't ever plan on having spawn nor bedding someone who does, so I'll just let the womenfolk decide on the issue.
@Milos:
So then why is it okay in the cases of rape and incest? If it's plainly wrong, then the circumstances around conception shouldn't matter, right?Even though I'd identify myself as pro-choice, I still find the people from the extreme side of the pro-choice side to be creepier than their pro-life counterparts.
I mean, Peter Singer considers (actual) infanticide to be perfectly ethical.
^ I still believe that, in such circumstances, it is the lesser evil compared to the alternative.
^^^Though that's part of the problem here, ennit? Women are being locked out of the legal debate.
I'm not anti-abortion, you'll note. At the same time, I don't make a distinction concerning where life begins. Ultimately, the choice ought to be left up to the parents of the unborn child, especially the mother. And I'm happy with that state of affairs, because an abortion is something that has to be considered rationally rather than being a clear-cut issue. We can't forget that an abortion prevents a potential life, so it's a procedure that ought to be subject to careful consideration and thinking.
Ultimately, I think it's better for a potential child to be aborted than to live in poverty and to be a resource drain on unprepared parents, but that doesn't mean the abortion was a conceptual "straight shoot". A sad and legitimate necessity, sure, and hopefully the legal right of every woman one day, but to prevent a life from happening is always a sad thing.
For what it's worth, abortion is easily one of the least clear-cut issues to me, because each side has a strong moral position. I'm in favour of abortion because of the kind of scenario you mentioned, but I would hate for people to lose sight of the big picture in the general abortion conversation -- that abortion has legitimate reasons for existing as a procedure and should be allowed in general before a particular point, but also that it prevents a life from coming into this world. It's the kind of issue I doubt will ever come down to general consensus, and perhaps it's one that ought not to. Like I said before, I'm happy for every couple or every pregnant woman to consider this as an individual with a wealth of unbiased information at their disposal, so they can make the choice they think is best. There's nothing more one can ask when dealing with a matter concerning life, the hardships of the female body and a considerable financial burden.
This isn't about ideology for me. It's about the lack of ideology, because it's a combination of so many incredibly huge issues; female empowerment, when life begins, when it is acceptable to prevent a life, how killing is defined and so on and so forth. It's far too complex for me to just consider abortion good or bad; so instead, I simply have to trust actual potential parents to meet the issue with rationality and an even mind, and for politicians to allow for abortion in the first place.
I think there's something I forgot to specify in my first post earlier. It's not just about "how do you punish women who choose to have abortions". It's also "okay, now that abortions are illegal, what happens". Some (not all) anti-abortion activists seem to have a default belief that making them illegal will simply cause the problem to go away--which it won't, and it might cause other problems to spring up.
And a fridge-logiccy problem that I have with laws banning abortion is this: If abortion really is a moral question, wouldn't making it illegal take away the significance of this moral choice? It's only a real choice if the person has a pair of non-degenerate options.
The problem with this idea is that a number of anti-abortion activists seem to be actually anti-sex.
People shouldn't take having sex lightly, in part because becoming pregnant is a result and risk of having sex. Remove the pregnancy problem--either by abortion or birth control--seems (to them) to be endorsing (by allowing) people having sex with fewer consequences.
Now this would all be fine and dandy if not for the fact that the people who think like this often aren't honest about this belief and simply cling to being "pro-life" yet also oppose contraception. If you think that recreational (non-procreative) sexual activity is wrong, please say so directly.
I'm pretty hardline on abortion: since the right to control your body is a fundamental right abortion should always be legal in any circumstances.
The only thing that could change my mind is a procedure that could kick the fetus out of the uterus non-fatally and consistently. I say consistently because although doctors have been pushing up the date of viability in cases where the baby is already born prematurely they still haven't even really been trying to safely induce labor earlier so I'm still sticking with the normal 36-week birth as the cutoff point.
I believe in the sanctity of life first and foremost, so I find abortion to be a greater evil here. However I tend to find myself understanding the whys and how one would reach such decision.
I believe that life begins at conception, but this world values life too cheaply.