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Comments
^ What do you mean?
[user deleted]
Um, I'm talking about looking at things socially. As in, wanting to discuss things with other people, and wasting tons of time on things like forums and IRC channels as a result. I want to get away from that.
Also, xkcd says I win The Game.
And I'm going to trust my sense of empathy to win that one too.
You know what, I don't just trust that I'm winning.
Considering that I just finished Dragonaut, and I could tell how its presentation was shit, yet I nevertheless enjoyed the story, and find the characters pretty interesting -- not to mention I love the music -- I know that I'm winning.
also, ED1 (Rain of Love) >> ED2 (Fight or Flight)
^ To call that "winning", implies that looking at things critically impedes enjoyment.
Second guessing one's motives for enjoying things can be burdensome. It's still a million times better than second guessing other people's motives for enjoying things
They don't say "TV Tropes will ruin your life" for nothing.
More meaningfully, though, I think it all depends on what expectations you have going into something.
If on expects a certain method of storytelling, or a certain type of plot development, or a certain type of characterization, then everything that that story does will get evaluated in one's head relative to those expectations.
So I think the best way is to not approach something with any expectations, and just let it take oneself wherever it leads.
The difficult part, it seems, is to avoid coming up with too many expectations part-way through the story. Sure, one can have no initial expectations, but if one watches a few episodes and starts thinking of the story as [genre], then that clouds one's expectations of the story. And this sort thinking is easier the more of that genre or medium one is familiar with -- which is why TV Tropes, as a tool to introduce people to lots of those details and conventions of genres and media, is said to ruin things.
Incidentally, there are some stories that specifically play with these expectations -- I think Madoka Magica is an example. The impact of the story is probably much greater for people who have built up an expectation of how a magical girl series ought to go, and try to apply it to that story subconsciously, rather than for people who go in with little or no such expectation of it at all.
The best stories, though, are those that forge forward with their own vision of how things work. They make their own sense internally, rather than playing off of the audience's expectations of how a genre/medium should work. That's not saying that they should entirely ignore those expectations -- it's fine to address them, but they should have a vision or broader idea that makes sense by themselves, simply as a story that one can understand merely by imagining oneself in the shoes (and minds) of the characters, without the need to be put into historical/cultural/genre/medium/etc. contexts.
Pretty sure somebody told you this already, but if Madoka Magica's impact relies on the audience having expectations about the genre, no way would it have gotten as popular as it did.
From what I can tell about Urobuchi, Madoka falls into this just as much as, if not moreso than "impact based on audience's expectations".
The magical girl genre is pretty big, has a long history, and remains quite prevalent. It's certainly not the only factor, though.
I was actually thinking less about MadoMagi and more about the stereotypical pulp-y show that just caters to a certain set of established conventions and primarily uses playing off of them to generate interest.
From what I can tell there's a biiiig segment of Madoka Magica fans that don't actually care about the genre in general, so whatever the hell you're suggesting is a major factor in it's popularity is probably far less significant.
Seriously though, this is like the umpteenth time you've said that MadoMagi would have a greater impact on someone who has expectations based on the genre, and you have yet to really like, prove this.
Yes, there's a good number of MadoMagi fans who have no interest in more typical magical girl shows, and actually specifically say that they like MadoMagi because it treats those premises/themes/atmosphere/archetypes differently.
The fact that they say that tells you that -- even if they don't watch the shows themselves -- they have expectations of the genre. I am not saying that these expectations are accurate, or well-founded, or anything, but they are expectations nonetheless.
This sounds more like how TV Tropes likes to put "deconstruction" on too many things, even if they have to make things up about conventions and expectations.
Also, "I like [thing] because it's different from other examples of [genre]" is not the same as "I have preconceived notions about [genre], and [thing] impresses me for subverting those expectations".
How is this different?
How does one know it's different if one doesn't have "preconceived notions"?
Those notions need not be accurate, or representative, or even based in experience. It could just be an impression that someone got from hearsay. Or it could be based in some shows of that genre that a person saw many years ago. But its still a thing in their heads against which they compare some new show that comes around, and their citing a difference between that thing and this new show means that their original idea of the genre meant something in the process forming an impression of the new show.
Except it's all over the place, and not just on TV Tropes.
Maybe I should have worded it as "I like shows that do [X] which is a thing that [genre] doesn't do" versus "I don't expect [X] in [genre] so when they happen together I am impressed". Someone acknowledging that it's "different" when discussing it doesn't mean they had genre-based expectations when they first watched it.
And the way you word it imply that people who like it for being "different" from other things in the genre experienced it in this process:
You don't think a situation like
could happen?
That could definitely happen, too, and almost certainly has in the case of MadoMagi with Gen Urobuchi's name attached to it.
I'm not too sure what you mean, but are you trying to differentiate the "expectations" thing as based on whether they're speaking from their first-hand experience versus hearsay/memes/stereotyping?
Also, note that the "create expectations" step is less so an intellectual exercise and more just a matter of first impressions and knee-jerk reactions.
Saying that "people like [series]/[series] has great impact on people because it's different from their expectations of [genre]" suggests that even if MadoMagi fans like many elements of the show, they wouldn't enjoy it as much if those elements were placed together in any other genre.
...why? I don't see how other genres have anything to do with this.
I think Naas is saying that it's more "I like Madoka because it has X [which happens to be unusal in magical girl shows] and I like X" as opposed to "I like Madoka because X is unusual in magical girl shows".
[user deleted]
Urobuchi isn't the only person who made the show though. In particular, Shinbo did direct the first season of Nanoha, which is the other most popular adult-oriented magical girl anime (he also directed some of Ginga Ojou-sama Densetsu Yuna, but that probably matters less).
At some point the bleeding heart teens and the edgelord teens have flipped around and they call it maturity.
"I used to not care about other peole's opinions, until I grew up and learned some empathy."
"I used to hate everyone who didn't share my beliefs, until I grew up and learned some empathy."
The only manner to pick a morally superior way is to be understanding of where people are coming from, and deciding to disregard and passively hate them anyway.
I could help out by telling all those people who post threads about CS:GO on the main Steam forums to take it to the the CS:GO forum.
Or, alternatively, I could leave them there and let other people be more annoyed at CS:GO fans.
Hm.
Do you have some degree of authority there? otherwise you're going to acomplish exactly nothing regardless of choice.
Where is that coming from, addict? Sounds like kids being kids.
I have successfully completed my first semester at The Ohio State University.
Just in time to fly across the country and hang out with Anonus!
Observations on internet debates in which maturity is invoked as an authority argument. The last sentence is how it mostly ends for those grasping this insight: they in turn become condescending know-it-alls who try to look neutral and enlightened while being very much in love with the sound of their own typing.
Guys, have you had an impression I've been recently more abrasive than usual? By now it's passed (I hope), but I've had that dash of bad mood for some time. A personal variety of winter depression, or what, seems like. Might've influenced the way I've been acting. Anyway, with some luck it'll stay so and I won't ruin anyone's Christmas. (Not that I mind ruining someone's Christmas. That's always fun.)
I guess I may also be getting the internet hypochondria. You know, as in a tendency to self-diagnose yourself with mental disorders. In other words, I've got that feeling that I'd be gulping pills now if I lived somewhere further west. Heh eh heh heh.
Which is quite funny in its own way. It's a bit like I was passing through some on-off brooding teenager phase.