Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
If you have an email ending in @hotmail.com, @live.com or @outlook.com (or any other Microsoft-related domain), please consider changing it to another email provider; Microsoft decided to instantly block the server's IP, so emails can't be sent to these addresses.
If you use an @yahoo.com email or any related Yahoo services, they have blocked us also due to "user complaints"
-UE
If you use an @yahoo.com email or any related Yahoo services, they have blocked us also due to "user complaints"
-UE
Hungary further on path towards neo-fascism
2013-03-11 12:36:52
edited 2013-03-11 12:36:52 in Politics
I don't even call it violence when it's in self defence; I call it intelligence.
Considering how the governing Fidesz party works together with the relatively openly fascist Jobbik party, and how basic rights are being limited, the title is not an ideological exaggeration.
Hungary defies critics over change to constitution
Hungary's ruling conservative Fidesz party is expected to push through constitutional changes shortly which critics say undermine democracy.
Fidesz has two-thirds of the seats in parliament so the new amendment to the basic law looks set to be approved. [Note: It doesn't Fidesz and Jobbik together have 2/3 of the seats]
The amendment would tighten up the laws on higher education, homelessness, election campaigns and family rights, defying constitutional court rulings.
The EU and US have urged Fidesz to respect democratic checks and balances.
Prime Minister Viktor Orban is under pressure at least to postpone the vote until experts from the Council of Europe - Europe's main human rights watchdog - can examine the amendment, the BBC's Nick Thorpe reports from Budapest.
Fidesz argues its changes are necessary to make a clean break with the previous constitution, which was adopted in 1989 when Hungary threw off communist rule.
Mr Orban has accused the EU of interfering in Hungary's domestic affairs. He has argued that major reforms are necessary to "renew" Hungary's institutions, saying the legacy of communism has not yet been eradicated.
Parliamentary muscle
The lengthy amendment overturns earlier constitutional court rulings and limits the court's right in future to challenge laws passed by parliament.
It is the fourth amendment to Hungary's new basic law since it came into force just 14 months ago - a fact which helps underpin criticism that the new constitution was both hurried and flawed, our correspondent says.
Critics at home and abroad say the amendment dismantles the architecture of democracy established since the fall of communism, and allows Fidesz to cement its own ideology at the heart of the state.
Several thousand people protested in Budapest on Saturday against the proposed changes.
The controversial Fidesz proposals include:
- Restricting political adverts to the publicly-run media during election campaigns
- A rule that university students can only get state grants if they pledge to work in Hungary after graduation
- Fines or prison terms for homeless people who sleep on the streets.
Since the BBC article lacks both spirit and meat, I'm translating a Spiegel Online article on the fly:
(bold as per article, underlining mine to point out the scariest parts, notes mine)
Controversional constitutional changes:
Hungary says good-bye to rule of law
In the middle of Europe there is a country which surrenders the principles of the rule of law; Hungary is disempowering its constitutional court. PM Orbán is massively expanding his influence, civil rights are curtailed. Now State President Áder is visiting Berlin - but criticism by the EU partners is usually not listened to.
Berlin - It has the appearance of a normal visit: The Hungarian State President János Áder is coming to Berlin this Monday. One could think it is a normal visit among EU partners. But relations between the European Union and Hungary are everything else but normal at the moment, since the country at the heart of of Central Europe currently bids farewell to all values that define Europe.
PM Viktor Orbán, a Fidesz member like Áders, is massively expanding his power. While the head of state is taking care of Hungarian-German relations in Berlin, the parliament votes on a highly controversial constitutional change: It disempowers the constitutional court, the last remaining guardian of the rule of law in the country. Furthermore, the independence of the judiciary is constrained in general. In other words: In the middle of the EU there is a country which surrenders the principles of the rule of law.
The firebrand and whip behind this question is the Hungarian Speaker of parliament László Kövér, one of the most influential men of the country and long serving leader of the governing party Fidesz. He likes to not hold back his rhetoric in questions of 'home' and 'nation'. One example was last Friday, when he told right-conservative Budapest TV station Hír his theory about how the world conspires against Hungary: The international capital, the EU and the USA had chosen Hungary as "symbolic place for their Cold War" - because the government in Budapest is committed to a "serious renouncation" of the "compulsory liberal path". He thus uses exactly the same paroles that Hungarian right-extermists have used for years. [Note: Jesus, and that guy is the Speaker of Parliament, not some random backbench politician!]
The reason for Kövér's tirade was the debate about the controversial constitutional change. This Monday now the parliament will vote about it - despite the massive criticism in the country and abroads. The necessary two thirds majority is practically ensured.
For weaks Hungarian civil rights organizations and opposition parties have protested against the endeavour; on Saturday thousands held a rally in front of the Budapest Parliament. After criticisms by the Council of Europe, the European Parliament and the US State Department, last week even the President of the EU Commission, José Manuel Barroso, had personally asked the Hungarian head of government Viktor Orbán to delay the vote. "No chance!" was the reaction of several leading Fidesz politicians afterwards.
In fact, the constitutional changes mean a serious renouncation of the principles of the rule of law and civil rights. That is not only the opinion of the Hungarian opposition and of EU politicians, but also of legal experts. The Budapest expert in constitutional law Gábor Halmai speaks of a "systematic abolishment of the constitutional order", the Hamburg expert in Europe law
Markus Kotzur calls the plans "highly problematic".
The most controversial points:
- In the future, the constitutional court is to only check the formal rightness of changes to the basic law - not anymore whether their content is legal. Furthermore, the judges may not use cases from before the introduction of the new Hungarian constitution in January 2012 as precedent anymore.
- The right to free speech is to be limited, in cases of vaguely defined "violation of the dignity of the Hungarian nation" [Note: A similar law existing in Turkey since Ataturk's times is one of the reason why Turkey is in no position to become EU member...]
- Students are to pledge to stay in Hungary for a certain time after the graduation and to work there. If they do not, they have to pay tuition fees. This way, the government will prevent the emigration of specialized workers and academicians.
Even laws that the constitutional court had deliberately judged contrary to basic rights are to be enshrined in the new constitution, thus becoming unassailable:
- Homeless people are not allowed to stay in public places - they can go to prison for that.
- Election campaigning in private media is to be forbidden. [Note: And guess who has secured themselves control over public media... yeah...]
- Furthermore, unmarried, childless or same-sex couples are to be expressively excluded from the definition of 'family'.
Faces with these constitutional changes, the democratic Opposition in Hungary [An apt term - it's really sad when it has to be used in the context of an EU country!] raises accusations against the Orbán government on a scope rarely seen before. András Schiffer, the normally rather restrained leader of the green-alternative party with the name "Politics can be different" (LMP) said on Saturday on a Congress in Budapest that an authoritarian System is establishing itself in Hungary, in which no right is guaranteed anymore and constitutionality is being dissolved. The outer-parliamentary opposition alliance "Together 2014" speaks in a declaration of an "amok run against the constitutional order".
The Budapest expert in constitutional law Kolláth György is drawing a clear conclusion: "This constitutional change destroys the separation of powers and ends the mutual, trusting, pluralist cooperation of the constitutional organs. At the same time it is a rejection of the European values once voluntarily accepted by Hungary."
Hungarian Speaker of parliament Kövér cares little for those analyses. Answering the question whether there could be a compromise with critics of the governing coalition, he said: "It is unlikely that we enter a compromise with representatives of a world view who even hold same-sex marriage to be imaginable."
Jesus, fuck. Doesn't even take Jobbik. Fidesz is scary all on its own. Given those points, calling the whole thing fascism really is not an exaggeration. Now, the EU doesn't let countries join if they do not fulfill certain standards in democracy and basic rights. The question now is, what happens if countries which are already members so blatantly fall below those lines? I say, if Hungary continues this path it should be excluded from the EU. Alas, the spineless, opportunist cowards in Brussels of course would never consider that.
Comments
...Like Greece?
What does Greece have to do with that? It has financial troubles that can be helped (whether they should be helped is another question). This is about a minimum at democracy and basic rights, and Hungary is slipping below that line. Hungary is turning into an authoritarian state, and those shouldn't be in the EU.
The... Golden Dawn debacle?
They aren't the government. They aren't (yet?) in the government restricting various basic rights and abolishing the constitutional court for all practical concerns. They aren't disallowing any election campaigning except in media they control. Greece is still adhering to EU standards. Golden Dawn thugs may have taken over de facto control in some neighbourhoods, but that's a problem with criminality then, so to speak, with illegal actions of a mob, not something the government (that is, Greece as a state) is responsible for.
That's the problem. That's what's happening in Hungary: The restrictions of all those rights, the transformation of Hungary into a state that does not meet fundamental EU standards in liberty and democracy. And in any case, Jobbik, Fidesz' junior partner, is practically as bad as Golden Dawn anyway, including having paramilitary organizations and the like (the so-called Hungarian Guard). While Golden Dawn thugs brutally hunt down foreigners, in Hungary the Hungarian Guard hunt down Roma. Same thing. And Jobbik actually has won more votes than Golden Dawn has.
Yeah, Hungary isn't the only European nation at risk of dictatorial rule right now. The situation in Greece isn't as severe -- the Golden Dawn aren't actually in official political power right now -- but we may be looking at something that exceeds the boundaries of a single nation. I'm not saying that Hungary and Greece are in cahoots, but similar pressures and insecurities may be leading them down similar paths, so we ought to be vigilant concerning the spread of such ideologies and policies.
*throws up arms in air*
Fine, relativize this all you want then...
Hungary is getting scary, especilly for those made scapegoats (especilly the Roma) by the fascists. I do not now how this will turn out in the end but if the plauge of hate continues know one thing: there is a risk in Europe itself that peace may not be in our time.
Hate to say this...but you can't do jack shit about this. Except maybe hope it doesn't happen.
The problem is not the increasing radicalization of the populace, or the racist motivated violence. The problem is how the government itself transform Hungary into an authoritarian state. And the EU could theoretically do something about it - if Hungary's constitutional orders falls below the essential standards of the EU, then the country should plain be kicked out of the EU, the same way as those countries aren't allowed in in the first place. But unfortunately, that's very unlikely to happen.
I'm sincerely sorry if I caused you frustration, but doesn't it seem odd that two fascist movements have gained influence in very, very recent history? This kind of thing doesn't happen just because a few individuals decide for it to do so; they need the support or at least the indifference of a large population. This isn't just about leaders, but what people are willing to accept and the politicians they choose to represent them. Right now, Europe is in a really good place insofar as liberal democracy goes, so what kind of thing causes the likes of Hungary to split from that, and for the likes of the Golden Dawn party in Greece to emerge? And what causes people to accept and even elect these groups and individuals?
I don't want to trivialise the situation in Hungary at all, but it's not just a case of the conservative Hungarian government being nasty. The Golden Dawn party in Greece has been gaining support and appear to have similar intentions; assuming that this isn't some kind of extremist conservative conspiracy (probably a really good assumption), then there must be common factors in place that allow this kind of thing to happen. We can't just think of it from a top-down perspective -- the bottom-up is just as important, and might help us identify wider patterns. After all, if Hungary and Greece are both going down this path (although more hope exists for Greece right now), the patterns of policy and behaviour that create this kind of thing might go unnoticed elsewhere if we don't try to derive information from their commonalities.
Golden Dawn appealed to the downtrodden and needy people who need supplies, and win their support with things like giving out free food. It's really more PR than anything else, and the incumbent government really has to step up their gain if they want to stop it from spreading.
In addition, estimates are that around 2/3rds of the Greek police/military are Golden Dawn voters.
My frustration is how people here throw all issues together in a rather simplistic way. I talk about basic rights already being abridged by a government changing its constitution, and you thrown in general notions about fascist movements in Europe, probably because Golden Dawn happened to be in the media spotlight in recent time. The thing is, Golden Dawn has not in fact gained influence, outside of their thugs controlling some neighbourhoods. They haven't really on the political level. Yes, their support among police and military is a threat - but just that a threat. The possibility that something bad can happen. In Hungary, that "something bad" is already in full swing on the political level.
Imagine if Golden Dawn did gain power in Greece, or at least became an important junior government patner. Imagine the politics they'd enact. That, too, would go against all EU values and standards. Wouldn't you say then Greece needs to be excluded from the EU? And that is what is happening in Hungary. Again, the points of the constitutional change:
-Constitutional Court cannot check laws for anti-constitutional content anymore, i.e., cannot check anymore if rights violate basic laws
-Election campaigning is only allowed in government-controlled media anymore
-Freedom of speech can be abridged under the pretext of "violation of the dignity of the Hungarian nation", which (as the example of Turkey shows) does allow for a very broad application
-Homeless people to be thrown in jail
That all IS currently happening in Hungary, and that is completely different level than some neo-nazi thugs running the streets. That is the government transforming politics and society and creating an increasingly fascist state. That kinda is as if Golden Dawn were to rule Greece.
I'm just not sure what you were expecting from us. Most of us here are colonials, far away from Hungary, so we're generally not up to date on what's going on. There's no point of reference for us, and given that political dissatisfaction has been on the rise and the Golden Dawn provides an example of recent grassroots fascism, it's the closest point of reference we have.
The other thing is that most of us are desensitised to corruption. Of course we are; many of the users here are U.S citizens and grew up throughout Dubya's two terms, and Australia hasn't necessarily been much better. Hungary's new policies might seem horrible to you, and they absolutely are, but many of us are struggling enough with our own governments and their short-sighted policies. They're not as bad as Hungary by a long shot, of course, but some of us can't help but be a little apathetic in the face of something that had to happen somewhere, sometime in the current political and economic climate. Some of us live in places where abortion is entirely illegal, or where you can still be beaten on the street for being or appearing homosexual.
Again, not as bad as Hungary. But the way we see things, a government taking a tumble into fascism is just kind of a "well, duh" moment. And the Golden Dawn is certainly important here, because they provide a more infantile example of fascist influence. After all, fascism has rules -- it has to be established under certain circumstances and with particular influences in mind. With the recent recessions and the rise in political dissatisfaction, it's not unreasonable to consider that the Hungarian conservative party and the Golden Dawn may have capitalised on similar conditions and insecurities.
Obviously, there are going to be differences as well. No-one's denying that. But at the same time, nothing happens in a vacuum. I don't think the world is going down in flames or anything, but you have to understand that you probably exist in a much more sensible political context than most. Hungary doing this didn't just come out of the blue; it validates concerns I'm sure plenty of us hold, and in some aspects, employs more extreme versions of what is currently in place. Example? Australia doesn't have any law or constitution protecting freedom of speech. It never has.
People are displeased with the EU, austerity measures and neoliberalism. Since the modern left is so fucking impotent and lukewarm, the voters turn to the only anti-establishment option, and that is the far right. SYRIZA in Greece has way more teeth than you'd expect of a mainstream left-wing party, so a lot of people voted for them there, way more than even the Golden Dawn.
There is a saying that any success of the fasicsts is to be blamed on the Left, for not taking advantage of mass displeasure and instead choosing to keep wallowing in impotent liberal rhetoric, afraid of any radical changes to the system or causing social conflict. Which is why I loathe mainstream social democrats, as they are nothing but reactionaries in disguise.
That's a whole lot of catch-22s. If you're homeless you're not exactly going to be able to pay a fine. I'm assuming "prison" is code for "hard labor", here? And apparently you can only be considered family if you have children out of wedlock?
Any chance that Fidesz and Jobbik will have a wedge driven between them somehow, dividing the vote, or is this a fait accompli? Can the court intercede somehow before it's legalized? Otherwise, it seems like their position is that they can't overturn it before it becomes law, and afterwards they won't have the power.
Unfortunate but unsurprising.
Fidesz has been in power and doing its thing for several years now. And in any case, Hungary isn't in the Eurozone. This is NOT a reaction to the Euro crisis and the ensuing austerity measures and it has nothing at all to do with the EU. Jeez, that's what I meant with lacking differentiation and you're even from a country neighbouring Hungary
Really, Greece (and the other 'Club Med' countries chafing under austerity, though there hasn't been much true political extremism in Italy/Spain/Portugal yet) and Hungary must be regarded completely differently, as two unrelated cases, IMO.
Well that saying is certainly true in Hungary, where Fidesz came to power because the social-democrats did such a piss poor job of running the country, and where resistance against Fidesz' authoritarian tendencies, or against Jobbik's extreme anti-Roma racism is ridiculously low. But spare your loathing for the actual reactionaries and conservatives. Stalin's doctrine of "social fascism" has brought nothing but misery.
The homeless would basically be arrested for loitering, they may not be on public places. Which of course still leaves the problem where they're supposed to go. To the best of my knowledge, Hungary hasn't reintroduced compulsory prison work (that would be one of those things forbidden under Council of Europe rules, if I'm not mistaken), but it sounds like something Fidesz would come up with eventually. As for the definition of family, well no, children out of wedlock means an unmarried couple, hence no family. The idea is that a couple should marry and have children (ideally in that order for Fidesz, I suppose), and then they are a family.
The vote was today, and as far as I know it has already passed. And as it's a change of the constitution itself (a constitutional amendment), no the courts can't intercede. But seeing how a main aim of these changes is to basically abolish the constitutional court for all practical matters, the question has a certain irony, heh.
Most of this is pretty over my head (I'm not the politics geek I was in middle school), but I will state that I firmly oppose the trampling-upon of human rights, and firmly support any action that might stop or prevent said trampling. So I think that if the EU can do something, they should.
Well, exactly how much does Hungary depend on the rest of the EU? Because even if the EP won't decide on their own to kick out Hungary, who's to say that the other EU member states couldn't easily pressure them into it?
The EP has no power anyway. What would hurt Hungary is losing access to the common European market, that would hurt its economy badly. I guess the EU could instead also impose sanctions on some kind on Hungary (they once did on Austria, that was a really ridiculous and over-the-top affair, though) before going that final step, but... there seems to be a real lack of political will in that regard.
I haven't been following the topic much. I have been having mixed feelings, as I don't fully trust my sources, but at this moment it seems like I can honestly disagree with Fidesz's changes. Octo already explained what I could, that this affair is unrelated, or mostly unrelated, to the recent crisis thing. Shit has been going on for a couple of years already, dunno, 2006 I guess (they had a cool riot back then BTW). I can also add that local right, around here, has an Orban fetish, they see the guy as one of them who has achieved success.
I would say that the rise of the far right in both Hungary and Greece feels more like a trend than a pair of isolated incidents, so I will disagree with Octo there, but I do agree that the situation in Hungary is the more pressing matter of the two because the power the Fidesz and Jobbik hold is very real and, unfortunately, legitimate to some degree.
While I agree that the failures of the centre-left are a significant factor here, I agree with Octo that you would best save your bile for the true reactionaries. After all, it is not the social democrats taking their fists and clubs to the innocent.
So, here's a question: What can we do? What should we do?
So, is this similar to how the U.S. Republican party (apparently) have been getting more radical with their right wingness? (Admittedly, a good deal of my peeking into U.S. politics has been through a somewhat liberal messageboard, so it's a little hard to tell)
Not really.
While there is an ongoing trend for the Republican Party to pander to hardcore, far-right Tea Party base, it's not exactly the mainstream. Granted if the Tea Party were as mainstream as it thinks it is, I don't doubt that we'd be in a similar situation.
But no, it's not really similar. The far right in the US is pretty extreme, but their governmental power at the moment is limited to the House and about half the Supreme Court. Which is still enough to grind the government to a halt, but not to pull off something like this.
"What would hurt Hungary is losing access to the common European market, that would hurt its economy badly."
Would doing this impact the market negatively? I know you mentioned there's no political will for it (unless that was just regarding sanctions) but I'm curious if it will ever be an option or if it would be too dangerous to the European market to consider.
Lazuli's family is from Memphis, if I recall correctly.
^^There's no political will because, well... the EU politicians are averse against anything that might appear as any form of rollback of the "European process". I'd say that's pretty much a dogmatic point by them, but then I might be biased by my own general opinion about the EU. Still, I'd say about that. Hungary's economy is small enough that excluding them from the common market would hardly register in the wider EU. But the message such a step, no matter if sanctions or outright exclusion would send... the EU politicians couldn't portrait the EU as happy family anymore then, and an exclusion would be a rollback of the 'European process' they want to avoid at any cost. Which is also the reason they dogmatically want to save the Euro despite all economical realities, politicians have outright said it's not about the economy but about the 'European idea' and all that. It's somewhat the same principle here I guess. But again, that might be my own bias.
not even sort of but it can't really be worse than being from Pennsylvania.
I don't really disagree with this??? Was this post supposed to be directed at someone else