Ancient Greece

DonZabu

Man. Those guys had it down.

Icalasari

Except for the fair treatment of women part

ClockworkUniverse

And the Spartans.

Well, they had war down. But in terms of general decency...not so much.

MadassAlex

I've heard the Spartans actually sucked at single combat.

ClockworkUniverse

I wouldn't be surprised. War was what they were going for, and what they succeeded at. The tactics they used just don't translate to one-on-one.

Icalasari

Wasn't war then essentially a bunch of one on one though?

MadassAlex

Nope; after the dominance of Germanic kingdoms following the fall of the Roman Empire, the style changed and became a combination of highly effective, Classical formation combat and the melee combat the Celts and Germanics preferred.

Before then, it's all hardline formation combat.

vandro

Icalasari, you are mistaking champion combat with actual combat.

captainbrass

^ Indeed. The Greeks, notably the Athenians, developed infantry fighting in a phalanx to a fine art. Alexander the Great conquered most of the known world in that style.

Most people would probably regard the thing the Ancient Greeks "had down" as their intellectual culture which is still seen as the basis of modern Western culture to this day. If you study philosophy, you'll still read Aristotle and Plato; if you study drama, you may do Greek tragedy; if literature, you may get to read Homer. It's all still very relevant.

vandro

Alexander the Great's army was so loyal that they had an undying loyalty to him...Oh wait, wrong version.

Malkavian

The Spartans were famous for their wall shield formation and in individual combat were pretty shitty. They lived in squalor and they lost the olympics to Athens often for a reason. What"s more is they never evolved their strategies leading Athens to overtake them there.

SPARTTAAAAAA was a hell hole.

Ponicalica

And a lot of important stuff in Thermopylae was done by the Athenian fleet, which was cut out of the 300 movie.

Malkavian

In fact what made Thermopylae important was that it was basically a stalling tactic for the Navy to get out there.

It also wasn't just the 300 Spartans there. There were over 1000 Arcadians, 900 Spartan Helots, and other groups bringing the Greek force up there to over 4000.

Seriously, fuck the war-mongering piece of bullshit machismo excuse for a film.

ClockworkUniverse

You know, I've never understood why fiction needs to exaggerate things that were already quite impressive.

Malkavian

Keep in mind it's an adaptation of Frank Miller comic which was basically 80 pages of 'This is a time and place where men were men and killed people and were badass didn't need any ipods or starbucks you worthless hippies.'

There's a guy in my Vampire game a few months ago who was talking about how awesome Sparta was and I had to bite my tongue to keep from going 'Yeah, like you'd do great in a place that killed malformed babies with that arm you can't fully extend.'

MillerCross

You know, I've never understood why fiction needs to exaggerate things that were already quite impressive.

Because, funnily enough, fiction is all about exaggeration to one degree or another.

ClockworkUniverse

Maybe I should have included the phrase "to that extent."

MillerCross

In order for Miller to make a metaphor out of the thermopylae, he needed to take out the other fighting groups, so the Spartans end up as the US and the Persian Army ends up as the...well, I don't think I need to finish that sentence, do I?

Granted, there was a coalition, but no right wing man would accept the fact that the only thing standing in between the Middle East and world domination was Sparta/the US. 

Malkavian

I think embellishment can be used effectively in fiction, like the apocryphal scene in Ed Wood where he meets Orson Welles. It's both inspiring for its portrayal of two stubborn men who loved film and hilarious for the miscommunication going on. 300 takes that principle in the exact wrong direction and the director still had the gall to insist it was based on history.

captainbrass

Whilst I think the director of the film made big claims for its historical accuracy, I can't believe that was really much of a consideration, and I doubt they gave much of a damn for Miller's views either. Like 90% of Hollywood action films, 300 runs on Rule of Cool, macho men doing ridiculously macho stuff and coming up with amazing macho bullshit one-liners and non-macho men in the audience orgasming at the sheer manliness of it all.

I liked it. But it needed a disclaimer along the lines of - "Any resemblance to actual Ancient Greeks is basically accidental."

Malkavian

Miller and Snyder were intentionally trying to galvanize the most brutal and cruel part of Greece. There's no way they didn't give intentional thought to it.

I really hate the 'it's just a dumb action film' explanation especially with all the Americans who bought into the propaganda.

MillerCross

the director still had the gall to insist it was based on history.

Did he? I thought Snyder was of the idea that it was a silly comic book. Or at least, he never came across as someone who thought he was doing the next Private Ryan. 

I think embellishment can be used effectively in fiction, like the apocryphal scene in Ed Wood where he meets Orson Welles. It's both inspiring for its portrayal of two stubborn men who loved film and hilarious for the miscommunication going on. 300 takes that principle in the exact wrong direction and the director still had the gall to insist it was based on history.

Embellishment is part of the nature of fiction itself. Everything is (in most cases) broken to its necessary comments in order to be easily digested. Granted, there is fiction that goes against this rule. But in order to break a rule, there must be a rule in the first place.

captainbrass

^^ Well, most action films are basically brutal and cruel, if you think about it, and the politics tend to be reactionary too (think of Rambo).

And if you bought into the propaganda, surely you'd be saying the film was a masterly allegory of America's position in the world after 9-11, not a dumb action movie. But no-one except Frank Miller believes that, even if they liked it.

Malkavian

Oh you overestimate the skepticism of the general populace.

And while it's true many action movies have similar issues they don't pretend to be historical. In the case of Rambo there is also the message of a man shellshocked and brutalized by the war. Unfortunately that part goes over most viewers' heads.

^^There's an interview I'd find if I wasn't on my phone where Snyder says the film is 90% history.

MillerCross

In the case of Rambo there is also the message of a man shellshocked and brutalized by the war- Unfortunately that part goes over most viewers' heads.

It helps that besides First Blood, none of the movies touch much on this.

Malkavian

Very true. Sly realized people don't want any thinking about their violence.