The lack of a gender neutral pronoun in English that isn't awkward to use

Icalasari

It? Sort of weird and insulting to use in terms of a person

They/them? I find it awkward at times, forcing me to use him/her/it

=/

MillerCross

"They/them" work for me.

RedEyedAbyss

I use "they" because he/she looks terribly tacky.

MillerCross

indeed. 

Icalasari

^^^ Well I find it awkward at times (specifically where there are multiple people I'm referring to - the wording gets a little awkward at times in my head because of they/them switching from plural to singular and back)

^^ Really?

Gelzo

Yeah, but it's still awkward enough to discourage me from using it unless absolutely necessary.

And then sometimes I get in trouble for referring to people by their sex rather than "gender". I don't mean it in an insulting way, but I have my own definitions and prefer to not be dishonest about them.

RedEyedAbyss

"And then sometimes I get in trouble for referring to people by their sex rather than "gender"."

This is where a term for "third gender" would be useful.

MillerCross

And then sometimes I get in trouble for referring to people by their sex rather than "gender". I don't mean it in an insulting way, but I have my own definitions and prefer to not be dishonest about them.

Most people with gender dysphoria dislike being called a he/she because, well, gender dysphoria. They're not mentally a he/she. I know you don't intend to be offensive with that, but it's as rude as calling a black man a nigger, even if you don't intend to be rude. It's one of those things where intention doesn't matter, but where respect of the other person's preference comes in.

This is where a term for "third gender" would be useful.

Unless their agendered, I don't think so.

glennmagusharvey

Try using 'ey, 'em, 'eir.

Especially if you do it in speech, people who care will like your trying to advance the third-person-singular-gender-neutral-pronoun cause, and people who don't like that cause will think you're just speaking with a twang.

Gelzo

"it's as rude as calling a black man a nigger"

I think you've been on the internet too long.

And I'm just not one to avoid stepping on toes that are placed under my feet if that's what I have to do to call a spade a spade. I'll use the appropriate gendered pronoun according to what I know about what their physical sex is. That doesn't mean I value them less as a person the way calling someone a nigger would.

MillerCross

 That doesn't mean I value them less as a person the way calling someone a nigger would.

It doesn't mean that to you, but it does mean that to the person who you're addressing. 

And to be offensive and unpolite for the sake of so-called honesty seems, to me, at least, unwarranted unless the person in question has really deserved such scorn in my eyes. And, let's face it, it's not like they're truly dishonest about their condition, otherwise, they would just say they're women and never post pics or talk about it in general, wouldn't they?

vandro

Scorn? Honesty is not scorn.

Gelzo

Offending people on the internet who choose to be offended at something I don't mean as an insult isn't a huge concern of mine. If someone wants to be called a doctor and I don't think they fit what I define as a doctor, I don't think it's rude of me to decide to not oblige.

MillerCross

Nigger and beaner are technically accurate and honest terms. Would you use them rather than black or mexican?

^There's a big difference between a concern of identity and semantics there, you know. 

Gelzo

That's completely different. This is more analogous to saying a black person is black when he wants everyone to think he's latino.

vandro

Actually, there are black, white, and asian latinos, not just mestizos...

Gelzo

You know what I meant.

^^^And there isn't here?

vandro

And yet you used the wrong term, see what does that mean?

glennmagusharvey

The problem I've run into is this: People take offense to this because they, especially transgendered people, consider gender identity to extremely important to them, on the order of racial slurs and stuff.  I guess especially for transgendered people it's important to them to be able to push against the societal norm in some way.

The question is whether I should acknowledge (or if you don't like this practice, indulge) this idea.

MillerCross

That's completely different. This is more analogous to saying a black person is black when he wants everyone to think he's latino.

Well, I call myself Colombian and I'm not. I don't see anything wrong with that, if the problem is one of heritage and nationality. I mean, I find it to be far more truthful to say that I'm Colombian than telling you where I was born, as I haven't spent more than 4 weeks in there, whereas Colombia is where I grew up. 

Gelzo

^^^You're just being difficult now. I meant racially latino or hispanic or whatever. Saying Mexican wouldn't be any more helpful.

^There's a difference between nationality and race, yes. But that doesn't make it inaccurate to say you're of a certain country if you're not a member of the associated race. Here in the states, we easily refer to citizens of all races as American.

vandro

No, saying mestizo or hispanic would have done. No one is racially latino, only cultural latinos exist

MillerCross

Yeah, turns out that Latin America is a huge continent with various races and that conflating them all into a big ball of nondescriptiveness labelled "Latino" is wrong.

who da thunk it

glennmagusharvey

"Hispanic" is an ethnic designation invented by the U.S. government anyway.

MillerCross

^There's a difference between nationality and race, yes. But that doesn't make it inaccurate to say you're of a certain country if you're not a member of the associated race. Here in the states, we easily refer to citizens of all races as American.

Not the point, man. My point is simply that sometimes we label ourselves and we decide to present ourselves in a form we find comfortable, because it defines us better than the labels that society applies to us, in a physical level or otherwise. And there's nothing wrong with that, and there's nothing dishonest about respecting said self labelling, provided it's not delusional. 

Gelzo

For fuck's sake.

Okay. Brown people. Let's imagine I said brown. Let's call asians yellow because not everyone from Asia is the same race.

vandro

Juan_Carlos: If we stretch the delusional argument it breaks down, gender dysphoria means there's something wrong with the brain, not the body.

^Nope, let's stick with Mongoloid/East Asian, then.

captainbrass

As a description of people of Central or South American origin, "Hispanic" is only useful insofar as the majority of them speak Spanish. It isn't really much to do with their ethnicity anyway. It's like referring to all Brits, Americans, Australians, New Zealanders and Irish people as "Anglos" because we mostly have English as a first language.

glennmagusharvey

red = native americans
brown = south asians
yellow = east asians
white = europeans
black = africans
tan = islanders

beige = mixed ethnicity

MillerCross

Juan_Carlos: If we stretch the delusional argument it breaks down, gender dysphoria means there's something wrong with the brain, not the body.

In a manner of speaking, yeah, but when I mean delusional, I mean stuff like labelling yourself as Jesus, Messiah of All Things (tm) vs labelling yourself as someone who doesn't identify with the male gender but identifies instead with the female gender and thus, doesn't feel comfortable with her body, as the case may be. 

If transgendered people were really delusional (Admittedly, according to a very idiosyncratical definition, which is the one described above) then they'd just ask you to call them women and would label themselves as women, not as transgendered.

vandro

Why always Anglo? No love for Saxons?