The Yugoslav Wars

gentlemanorcus

More of a discussion than anything.

I have recently read a book, called And Do No Harm, that purported America's involvement in the war was their attempt to keep NATO relevant after the Cold War so they could keep a hegemony in Europe, which the developing European Union threatened. 

Also, this is a really cool song. Considering who's "theme" it is...

Ironweaver

-peeks out- You called?

And, yes, it is true that the West had a lot to gain from the war - the newly unified Germany supported the independence of Slovenia and Croatia, them traditionally being in the German sphere of influence, and saw them as potential partners. Kosovo, a region of great strategic and economic importance is, by now, effectively an American puppet state and it holds Camp Bondsteel, the largest US military base in Europe.

None of the sides were "good" or had a reason to be helped - everybody had their fair share of crimes and monsters. The US wasn't above lying, presenting a biased report and deceiving the public in order to further its own agenda. This basically ruined Serbia for twenty years after the beginning of the war, and it's still far from recovering.

gentlemanorcus

I knew you would post here. You're Croatian, right?

The Yugoslav Wars are fascinating to me, really, because of that moral ambiguity (Tudjman frequently used propaganda and Izetbegovic was a master of manipulating the Western press) and the idea the West's involvement was mainly to strengthen NATO and keep something of a hegemony in Europe. 

captainbrass

I don't know about the Americans, but at the time it was often said that the intervention was partly so that NATO in general could show it was good at something besides facing off against the Warsaw Pact.

However, you also shouldn't ignore the genuine moral outrage at what was seen as being the US and Western Europe doing nothing to prevent a war on their doorstep. Places like Sarajevo and Dubrovnik under siege got huge news coverage.

It probably helped that they were more familiar than some parts of Eastern Europe because Yugoslavia wasn't so closed-off to Westerners. My granny went to Istria on holiday in the 80s and they held a Winter Olympics in Sarajevo at that time too. 

Ironweaver

@Orcus: Nope, I'm Serbian (hell, it says so in my title :-P). I also find them fascinating, in a sense, for pretty much the same reasons as you are. Having lived through the 90's and remembering the immediate aftermath of the wars in Croatia and Bosnia (I was still too young to remember the wars themselves), as well as the Kosovo War and the NATO bombing in '99, they are something of a touchy subject for me. I greatly enjoy discussions about them on the internet, and like seeing people with differing opinions for the sake of an intelligent debate. Unfortunately, more often than not, there are ignorant Westerners quick to deride my nation as a bunch of genocidal maniacs, failing to see the bigger picture and refusing to use any source other than CNN. They bug me far more than the nationalists in the region using similar rethoric, since I can at least understand why they are feeling like that - that war was hell for all the sides involved.

@Brass: In some sense, I agree. Although, the West's interference shouldn't have been anything other than sending peacekeeping missions, humanitarian help to civilians, regardless of their nationality, and maybe taking a completely neutral stance as a mediator. That would have been enough to lessen the consequences of the war, if they had wanted it to be. Even though they could have easily accoplished it, the blue helmets had been ordered not to interferewhile atrocities such as the Srebrenica massacre were commited, only in order to later use it as a leverage against the Serbs.

gentlemanorcus

If I may ask, how old were you in the NATO bombings?

Ironweaver

Six. As much as my mother tried to shield me from seeing the explosions and other stuff (my father was drafted), my curiosity was still stronger. Since most of the time we were at my grandmother's in the center of Belgrade, where most of the bombs had fallen, preventing me from seeing the stuff right outside the window wasn't that easy. I still remember that I was crying when I saw that some of the big buildings that we used to pass by every single day were destroyed, watching the explosion of a petroleum factory, a song with Serbian children begging the US to stop the bombing in English, that used to be shown on the TV every hour or so, and that day when my foot got stuck in a crack in the pavement while I was playing outside, and that the people around me tried to pull it out, panicking, while danger sirens were howling and airplanes flying across the sky. It wasn't pretty.

gentlemanorcus

Jesus. That must have been terrifying. 

By the way, I would recommend that book I mentioned earlier, And Do No Harm. It pretty much outlines how the United State's involvement was mostly a failure and just made things worse. 

Ironweaver

I took it a lot better than my mom, who was crying almost all the time, and was pregnant with my little brother, to boot. Probably because I was still a little kid. I remember being really worried about my father, though.

gentlemanorcus

If this is too personal, feel free not to answer, but did he survive?

Ironweaver

Don't worry, he's alive - he only did administrative work in the headquarters. Still, I was too small to understand the difference, and thought that he was out there fighting on a battlefield.

gentlemanorcus

Ah. That's good then.

So how did your family do after the war ended?

Ironweaver

Ah, they returned to their regular pre-war jobs, and my brother was born shortly after. It didn't affect their personal lives much.