I feel that Dungeons and Dragons is entirely oudated in its approach.

MadassAlex

Someone prove me right/wrong.

AHR

I like dnd, having only played 3.5.

Why do you think it's outdated?

All Nines

I've played it for so long that I'm tired of it, and I'm now focusing on nWoD (specifically, V:tR), but I could still probably answer most/any of your questions.

How do you feel that it's outdated?

glennmagusharvey

D&D is very complicated.  Unfortunately, it's also the only system I know (3.5e).

I've been coming up with my own ideas for years.  But they might be more suited toward videogames.  I ought to read up on Super Console RPG and also finish reading BESM 3e.

Idea I had a long time ago:
six basic stats: HP, MP, speed, physical attack, physical defense, special attack, special defense.  Obviously for a JRPG; derived from Pokémon.

Idea I had just last night: if you want derived stats, here you go.
* strength - how much you can lift/pull/push/etc., how hard you can hit
* dexterity - how fast you can hit (affects multiple hits, rather than based on level in D&D; affected by weapon weight and stuff), how well you can evade, how nimble you are
* wisdom - magic based on intelligence and analysis, and a few other things.
* will - magic based on emotion, and a few other things.
* and then something from which to derive HP, because HP is actually endurance--you don't drop dead at 0 HP; you just can't fight anymore.  Ought to have a negative HP count.  Still not decided how bursts of adrenaline should work.
* dunno how MP should work yet, but in a setting with multiple schools/sources of magic, there may be different MP schemes.
* dunno about social stats yet.
Wisdom and will are actually based on the wisdom and will stats in Final Fantasy IV, which were used respectively for casting black magic and white magic.

Malkavian

I feel that Alex needs to lay down an actual argument before this conversation can go anywhere.

Someone prove me right/wrong.

MillerCross

OK, I have an argument for D&D being outdated

The characters don't run around with ipads and there are no TV elves

Game set and match, you can lock the thread now.

AHR

Outdated in its approach, not its world, dearie.

Gelzo

Oudated?

MillerCross

Outdated in its approach, not its world, dearie.

You could easily argue that approach doesn' necessarily mean "gameplay" and could mean "how it approaches an RPG setting"

Not like it matters, since the Australian son of a bitch is asleep.

MadassAlex

Here's a few things I think are kinda nyerrr about DnD:

- ALL THESE FUCKING DICE. There's a reason lots of other game types only use a small selection or even one kind of die roll. I get that DnD wants finer control over chance, but in the end it just makes things more complicated. Systems with one die type (WoD, Dark Heresy) work fine and are fast to play with minimum hassle.

- Finely-controlled, locked classes. And even more finely controlled classes based on having particular builds of previous classes.

- Ya know what? Just being too damn complex in general. I understand DnD being complex editions ago when this tabletop RPG thing was just starting up and the designers didn't have the hang of it yet, but, to paraphrase Juan:

> 2011
> More than 3 dice types

Also the setting(s), but that's old hat. DnD does its best to be a fantasy kitchen sink, and how well that works depends on the DM. The lack of research shown about the medieval era is really astounding, but that's niether here or there.

ClockworkUniverse

You've got points, definitely.

Although each edition is less complex than the last.

Also, as much as people say the default setting is medieval-ish, I'm not really sure how true it is.

MillerCross

it's obviously fatansy medieval, if it is really medieval (Which I don't think it is, really)

Chagen

I hope you never play Exalted, Alex, you start out by rolling 3-5d10 and late in the game don't be surprised to start rolling 20d10 or even 40d10.

MadassAlex

"Medieval" is definitely the intended theme, despite its forays into ancient and Renaissance stuff.

^ That's not so bad. I can see the logic there. d10 systems are a popular design choice for good reason; every calculation is based on divisions of 10, or 10% likelihoods. It makes things simple and easy to quantify for both the designers and players.

MillerCross

I don't see the point in rolliing so much

Then again, I don't see the point in RPing, so!

ClockworkUniverse

^^^That's quite simple and consistent. Just one type of die.

^^I've very rarely played in an actual Medieval setting, unless it was a pure kill-stuff-no-plot game. Most settings I've seen are different.

MadassAlex

I would argue that the lack of pure medieval settings has more to do with designer intention or ignorance than thematic attempt at something else. As much as DnD can't be classed as "medieval" from a historical perspective, just to take an example, it does live in the same place within wider cultural consciousness.

I mean, if you asked a bunch of DnD players and a bunch of non-players if DnD was "medieval", I bet most would say "yes".

Chagen

Juan: Exalted's system works like this.

Whenever you need to do something, the Storyteller assigns a skill to it. You then roll your stat. So if you have 5 strength, you roll 5d10 for a strength roll.

The storyteller then assigns a difficulty to the roll. You must have more sucesses (7 on a single die--rolling a 0/10 counts as two successes) than the difficulty of the roll. The more sucesses you have, the better your character did the action--5 successes on a 5 difficulty roll means that you merely did it, 10 successes on the same roll means you did it fucking EPICALLY.

However, there are lot of skills/conditions that can raise/lower youe dice pool. One of these is the stunt bonus--if you describe what you are going to do in a grandiose and epic way, you can gain extre dice from the Storyteller.

ClockworkUniverse

What I meant is that most settings I've seen are actively trying to be something other than medieval.

MadassAlex

That is true.

^^ So, like WoD with a side serving of TTGL.

Chagen

I'm pretty sure WoD and Exalted are made by the same people, White Wolf.

All Nines

They are, and the similarities in design (using d10's for everything, determining how many to roll through dots assigned to Attributes and Traits and whatnot) are apparent. The settings are the biggest differences between Exalted and World of Darkness.

Speaking of WoD, I just finished my first character. It went from Mekhet gangbanger (which would be impossible by the Humanity/degeneration rules, if my skimming of that section is correct) to a Mekhet mild-mannered technical editor who happens to specialize in dual-wielding pistols.

ClockworkUniverse

Yeah, they use the same system, but Exalted tends to have bigger numbers.

Exalted was originally supposed to be a prequel to WoD.

All Nines

"Exalted was originally supposed to be a prequel to WoD."

Bwuh?!

ClockworkUniverse

Yep. It was OWoD. They changed their mind.

glennmagusharvey

> - ALL THESE FUCKING DICE. There's a reason lots of other game types only
use a small selection or even one kind of die roll. I get that DnD
wants finer control over chance, but in the end it just makes things
more complicated. Systems with one die type (WoD, Dark Heresy) work fine
and are fast to play with minimum hassle.

Actually, I've been thinking, it would be nice if D&D switched from a d20 base to a 3d6 base.

MadassAlex

If you wanted to keep multiple dice types but reduce it, I think it would be best to keep d20 and d10 dice, and then perhaps one other type. Perhaps d4, since that splits nicely into quarters.

Malkavian

I don't see it as being difficult to comprehend or being confusing. Keep in mind, during combat sessions in D&D I pull out my comic books until my turn and look at the board really quickly before deciding my move. I only have to keep track of one weapon, so it's not like an extra die adds any more than ten seconds to my calculation.

Part of D&D is indeed its strategy aspect, and it's pretty easy to ignore that and just grabbing weapons you like, but it's a core part of its market. In addition, it all roles down to basic arithmetic. Maybe some halving if you're doing fancy stuff. It does however provide more range for what you can build while still having concrete rules.

D&D is far from my favorite game and I do think it's emphasis on combat is an issue. I do like simpler games like Don't Rest Your Head and Spirit of The Century, but I think it's stupid to villify a game for being complex. (and D&D isn't that complex, especially in comparison to games like Traveler and GURPS) Some people like complexity. That's why video games like Civilization exist. If that's not your thing, fine. It's usually not my thing either, but it's not exactly hideous at what it does.

MadassAlex

Malk, the forum tells me you posted, but my post is the last on the list.

I think I'm being trolled by IJBM.

edit: I posted and now I can see your post. Roffle.

Malkavian

My post is right before my first post in response.

When most forums break, they break in a boring way, but IJBM breaks in new and magical ways!

EDIT: Oh it fixed.

Oh. No it didn't. WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON?

MadassAlex

goddammit it did it again

It's like I'm gong to have to make a new post for every time I want to see a response. -_-;