Genre categories

MillerCross

Started because derail, bluh.

INUH, make an OP that is not the actual the OP but actually presents your argument or something. 

ClockworkUniverse

Short version: I feel like the advent of computer-based media has led to media becoming increasingly mixed over time, thus rendering the idea of a work necessarily belonging to a specific medium obsolete.

MillerCross

The thing is, in order for a work to be analyzed throughly, you need to understand the possibilities it has and what it can do right and what it can do wrong.

To do so, you need to understand the medium in which it belongs. And well, to start considering medium distinctions obsolete would lead to a new system of analysis. Or at least, another different way to approach that. And I don't see how that wold happen.

Anyway, the way I see it, (Me not being a Homestuck regular reader), Homestuck still qualifies as a webcomic, for a variety of reasons, which I have stated before, such as the fact that, regardless of the modifications it brings to the format, it's still told through a combination of images and text.

Forzare

Probably missing the point, but The Far Side (for instance) is considered a comic, even though the text goes below the pictures most of the time instead of being a part of it.

ClockworkUniverse

^^But a medium is just a generalization of what possibilities it shares with a group of works. Wouldn't it be better, analysis-wise, to look at what the work itself has to work with? After all, if we analyze Homestuck as though it were a webcomic, we really can't talk about interactive or animated segments or music. I don't see what benefit comes from calling Homestuck a webcomic, rather than just calling it Homestuck.

To get the discussion away from Homestuck a bit, I'm going to switch to video games and their evolution. Initially, they were all interactive, all the time. Indeed, interactivity is the measure generally used to define a video game. And yet now we have cutscenes, which, by and large, are not interactive. So, when Metal Gear Solid takes control away from me for a time, it's basically Kojima saying "I think it would be better for this work to be a CGI-animated film for the next few minutes."

^Argh, you ninja. I'm more focused on the fact that the amount of text in Homestuck is far greater than the amount of imagery at this point.

MillerCross

^Argh, you ninja. I'm more focused on the fact that the amount of text in Homestuck is far greater than the amount of imagery at this point.

I wouldn't say that argument holds much water, as many comics are incredibly disbalanced in their word/image count. Chris Claremont's infamous run on X-Men comes to mind.

them wall of texts.

But a medium is just a shorthand for what possibilities it has. Wouldn't it be better, analysis-wise, to look at what the work itself has to work with? After all, if we analyze Homestuck as though it were a webcomic, we really can't talk about interactive or animated segments or music. I don't see what benefit comes from calling Homestuck a webcomic, rather than just calling it Homestuck.

It's an aspect of an analysis, not the whole thing.

But anyway, part of the point of a work is that it has limitations and advantages that are gifted by the medium in which they are conceived and presented on. To analyse a work throughly, you need to look at this and look at how a work uses them to its advantage or detriment. 

Admittedly, you do have a point in the fact that medium classifications can be quite blurry, but I feel they are not as blurry as you seem to think they are.

To get the discussion away from Homestuck a bit, I'm going to switch to video games and their evolution. Initially, they were all interactive, all the time. Indeed, interactivity is the measure generally used to define a video game. And yet now we have cutscenes, which, by and large, are not interactive. So, when Metal Gear Solid takes control away from me for a time, it's basically Kojima saying "I think it would be better for this work to be a CGI-animated film for the next few minutes."

It bears mentioning that MGS cutscenes are pseudo interactive, in that while you can't change the outcome, you can enhance them, either with MGS 3's FP mode or with MGS 4's flashbacks. 

Anyway, that note aside, I'd still argue that these cutscenes are only avalaible after you interact with the game in a certain way, which keeps MGS in videogame territory, regardless of how long the cutscenes are.

ClockworkUniverse

But anyway, part of the point of a work is that it has limitations and advantages that are gifted by the medium in which they are conceived and presented on. To analyse a work throughly, you need to look at this and look at how a work uses them to its advantage or detriment.

That doesn't mean you need to slap a label on, though.

Admittedly, you do have a point in the fact that medium classifications can be quite blurry, but I feel they are not as blurry as you seem to think they are.

It's a process. Digital media is still in its infancy.

It bears mentioning that MGS cutscenes are pseudo interactive, in that while you can't change the outcome, you can enhance them, either with MGS 3's FP mode or with MGS 4's flashbacks.

With MGS3, a movie could acheive a similar effect by playing on two screens simultaneously or dividing the frame, although I'll admit that it blurs the line (though blurring the line between media is kinda what I'm talking about here). Haven't played MGS4, though; could you elaborate?

Anyway, that note aside, I'd still argue that these cutscenes are only avalaible after you interact with the game in a certain way, which keeps MGS in videogame territory, regardless of how long the cutscenes are.

I'm not saying that it's not a videogame. I'm saying that if you say "it's a videogame," that doesn't really convey the entirety of the work's set of tools.

MoeDantes

To do so, you need to understand the medium in which it belongs.

This copy of the Cat in the Hat I have is on a VHS tape. Let's see... what do I know about VHS tapes... oh, you put them in, you press "play," you can stop, rewind, fast forward or record over it, and there's a chance it will get eaten.

Okay, I understand the medium. Now I have a greater appreciation for The Cat in the Hat!

MillerCross

That doesn't mean you need to slap a label on, though.

You kinda need to, actually. Because the label conveys the basics of what you're getting. 

It's a process. Digital media is still in its infancy.

yes, but what I'm trying to say with that is that so far, your point about medium labels being obsolete is not true. Yet, at least.

With MGS3, a movie could acheive a similar effect by playing on two screens simultaneously or dividing the frame, although I'll admit that it blurs the line (though blurring the line between media is kinda what I'm talking about here). Haven't played MGS4, though; could you elaborate?

Basically, there are certain scenes in MGS 4 that resemble scenes in other moments of the series. The game gives you a prompt to show you what Snake's remembering when these things happen.

This is a bad example but it's the closest I could find

I'm not saying that it's not a videogame. I'm saying that if you say "it's a videogame," that doesn't really convey the entirety of the work's set of tools.

Welp, it says video, and it uses cutscenes. And it's playable, and it says games, so...

Serious answer. I think that by now, Video Games have become known for having cutscenes as well. Don't know if that really counts against your point, but the way I see it, public consciousness definitions are indeed a thing. 

OK, now, speculation time.

I think that as we go along, and we start studying new media throughly (Which is gonna take a while considering the current state of VG journalism), we'll come up with new media classifications. Either that or simply retool the old ones. After all, film used to mean "Pictures that move with text in between in order to convey dialogue"

ClockworkUniverse

You kinda need to, actually. Because the label conveys the basics of what you're getting

Yes, but when you have to say "this is in this medium, but differs from this medium in that blahblah," why bother with the label in the first place?

yes, but what I'm trying to say with that is that so far, your point about medium labels being obsolete is not true. Yet, at least.

Sorry, 3AM writing skills. I should have said "becoming obsolete."

Basically, there are certain scenes in MGS 4 that resemble scenes in other moments of the series. The game gives you a prompt to show you what Snake's remembering when these things happen.

So, basically what 3 did, but with something else serving as the alternate view? Is that right?

Serious answer. I think that by now, Video Games have become known for having cutscenes as well. Don't know if that really counts against your point, but the way I see it, public consciousness definitions are indeed a thing.

That's true, and perhaps picking something that common as an example was a mistake, but there are other things that show up in works generally considered to belong in a certain medium that have nothing to do with any other work in that medium. Here I'm going to go back to Homestuck as an example; how many people consider music, multi-screen-long textblocks or interactivity to be a part of the webcomic medium?

I think that as we go along, and we start studying new media throughly (Which is gonna take a while considering the current state of VG journalism), we'll come up with new media classifications. Either that or simply retool the old ones. After all, film used to mean "Pictures that move with text in between in order to convey dialogue"

But is there any need to keep the labels at all? From a creative standpoint, rather than a critical one, they seem more like limitations than tools.

MillerCross

Yes, but when you have to say "this is in this medium, but differs from this medium in that blahblah," why bother with the label in the first place?

Because you still get rid of a lot of speech via a simple word. Think of it like this:

"It's like words, but with pictures in the internet. It has music, multi-screen-long textblocks and interactivity, too"

Or

"It's a webcomic with music, multi-screen-long textblocks and interactivity"

OK, not a lot of speech, but the point is, it helps in order to define a work without having to explain its core basics. 

So, basically what 3 did, but with something else serving as the alternate view? Is that right?

Pretty much, yeah.

That's true, and perhaps picking something that common as an example was a mistake, but there are other things that show up in works generally considered to belong in a certain medium that have nothing to do with any other work in that medium. Here I'm going to go back to Homestuck as an example; how many people consider music, multi-screen-long textblocks or interactivity to be a part of the webcomic medium?

Not many, but I think that Homestuck is classified as a Webcomic mostly because of its distribution, rather than its presentation. Although it does share a lot with webcomics, and it can be easily argued that it's simply just a variation on the medium, on par with adding sound to film. (Gee, me making a comparison to film, what a surprise)

But is there any need to keep the labels at all? From a creative standpoint, rather than a critical one, they seem more like limitations than tools.

To me, they work as starting points. To go back to MGS, specifically, 2. I don't think the game's point about Raiden and his nature as a PC wouldn't have been even thought of if, you know, Kojima didn't recognize the fact that there's such a thing as videogames, in which you often play as a character and controll his performance in the actions he sets out to perform. 

ClockworkUniverse

Because you still get rid of a lot of speech via a simple word

Yeah, I guess. Maybe I just favor specificity at the expense of brevity.

Not many, but I think that Homestuck is classified as a Webcomic mostly because of its distribution, rather than its presentation.

The fact that people view distribution as an inherent property of the work kinda bothers me. Is a copy of Citizen Kane that's been put on a DVD to make it viewable by a modern audience a different work than the one that was originally released?

I don't think the game's point about Raiden and his nature as a PC wouldn't have been even thought of if, you know, Kojima didn't recognize the fact that there's such a thing as videogames, in which you often play as a character and controll his performance in the actions he sets out to perform.

Wouldn't it have worked just fine if he'd just recognized that there exist a lot of works in which you control a character's performance in the actions he sets out to perform?

MillerCross

The fact that people view distribution as an inherent property of the work kinda bothers me. Is a copy of Citizen Kane that's been put on a DVD to make it viewable by a modern audience a different work than the one that was originally released?

the thing here is, that Kane wasn't originally a DVD, whereas Homestuck has not stopped being published the way it has been published since its inception.

Anyway, the reason and the logic behind it is that determines its narrative nature (Serial vs self contained work, for example)

Wouldn't it have worked just fine if he'd just recognized that there exist a lot of works in which you control a character's performance in the actions he sets out to perform?

Wouldn't have been much of a commentary on the concept of mediums and their lines blurring and changing if he did.

ClockworkUniverse

So...I was about to type another lengthy response, then I realized it was almost 4 AM...tell ya what, I'll get back to you tomorrow.

MillerCross

Yeah, I should be sleeping too. >_>