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"Humans Are Bastards"

edited 2011-06-14 11:25:35 in General
Because you never know what you might see.
If this is true, why do you give a shit what horrible things other people do to one another?
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Comments

  • Hmm, was this inspired by the monthly I've-lost-my-faith-in-humanity thread in OTC?
  • Because you never know what you might see.
    Maybe.

    (Yes.)
  • edited 2011-06-14 11:33:56
    I am Dr. Ned who is totally not Dr. Zed in disguise.
    It seems like a general angst coupled with over generalisation.
    They just need to possibly have some support for their problems at home/locally and also be able to have all the 'faithless' stuff put into perspective.
  • Because you never know what you might see.
    Yeah, you're right, I think.

    But it's not the OP that bugs me, it's the Fridge Logic that griping about how humans are apparently bastards induces.
  • edited 2011-06-14 11:36:30
    Tableflipper
    I'm sure assholes tend to get annoyed by other assholes too, though.
  • edited 2011-06-14 11:45:30
    Clean your room little Billy
    They just need to possibly have some support for their problems at home/locally and also be able to have all the 'faithless' stuff put into perspective.

     

    Or maybe they need to have the SHIT KICKED OUT OF THEM UNTIL THEY SHUT UP!/DarkDecsAreBastards

     

    Having no faith in humanity helps in two ways 1. not dropping your monocle when reading about the latest ghastly crime in the electronic newspaper and 2. not making these topics.
  • edited 2011-06-14 11:42:55
    I am Dr. Ned who is totally not Dr. Zed in disguise.
    Humans are Humans should be a trope. (So in OTC I could just put the trope down in every thread about the topic like those that use the Humans are Bastards trope.)

    Humans can do a great many actions, these actions are designated good or bad depending on the society and culture.
    The actions have no inherent good/evil-ness.
    Humans have no inherent good/evil-ness.

    Humans are Humans.
  • edited 2011-06-14 11:43:46
    Because you never know what you might see.
    ^^^ So the complaint is actually "humans act like bastards towards me"?

    ^ I'm fond of Humans Are Flawed.  Still a generalisation, but if interpreted to refer to the whole of the human race, it seems reasonably accurate, I think.
  • Every time I find myself thinking this... I just have to remember Hanlon's Razor.
    As such, as much as humans appear to be bastards.... it is more a case of their just being idiots.
    Really... when you get a feel for how the average human mind operates and compare that to human ideals and perception of their own workings... well... the gulf between them is horrifically wide. The span of human ignorance and just plan cognitive vacuousness is frankly rather horrifying.

    Ultimately, the only differences between this and them just plain being bastards are that there is no way to reason them out of it... and no point in blaming them for it.
  • Because you never know what you might see.
    Eh, we have a greater capacity for reason than any other species.  No reason to be defeatist.
  • edited 2011-06-14 11:51:11
    Tableflipper
     So the complaint is actually "humans act like bastards towards me"?

    I'm pretty sure this has to be included at the point one complains about humans being bastards to begin with.

    Now then the part where they themselves consider to be above the others or say that they shouldn't be such is where the problem is.
  • Potential capacity... most commonly squandered in the most embarassing of ways.
    But ultimately, if anything that is just nature's fault. It is just how the game works.  We develop the freedom of multi-stage reasoning, of pattern-recognition and memory... We can learn, analyse and utilise so much more data than most other species...
    And what does it get used for?  Religious pissing contests, football riots, tabloid newspapers, and the ability to make all sorts of things in the form of giant penises. 
    All that potential for understanding, discovery and realisation... and yet just a slither of the population amounts to anything more than any other animal out there: a life of rutting, squabbling and barking at our own reflections.


     


     

  • edited 2011-06-14 11:59:33
    Tableflipper
    Also, Humans Are Flawed (the trope description) bothers me, on the basis that it considers being incompentent but capable of growing as better than perfection/being too much more superior from the start.
  • You can change. You can.
    I thought the idea was that humans are good and strive to be better, but that they're...you know..flawed.
  • That might be your idea, but the trope page says "humans suck but we can get better and therefore we're better than those who are already better than us"
  • You can change. You can.
    Really?...

    Trope sucks donkey balls, then. 
  • edited 2011-06-14 12:08:59
    Tableflipper
    Hm, apparently I misremembered it, since I just read it again and all it says is "we're awesome because we can get better even if we suck right now compared to those guys already way better than us" though I don't think that is much better. Either that or it was TRS'd or something.
  • The "Humans are Flawed" trope seems to somehow carry itself like some sort of virtue...
    Acknowledgement of one's flaws is a step towards betterment. Working around them is too.
    But ultimately what it fails to address is that it is results that count. Intent means nothing in the end.
    Flaws make it more difficult to achieve the right results. This is inevitable. 
    That warped aesop that everything is the fine the way it is, that humans are fine and shouldn't attempt to self-improve.... that is frankly a disgusting way of thinking. The only way to achieve humanity's ideals is through actions that any individual human unit would have a seriously hard time accepting. Humanity holds back out of fear, wanting the final outcome but unwilling (or even unable) to take the steps to realise it.
  • The point is that you should improve in order to get the results.

    It still does glorify effort more than the actual good stuff one gets though.
  • Because you never know what you might see.
    Yeah, actually, the trope description is kind of lame.  OK, maybe not such a good trope.

    >All that potential for understanding, discovery and realisation... and yet just a slither of the population amounts to anything more than any other animal out there: a life of rutting, squabbling and barking at our own reflections.

    I don't think this is true.  People spend a lot of time doing dumb things, but we're still a bit more intelligent and complex than that.
  • Just because humans are bastards does not mean that they are acting like bastards every single waking moment. Or actively looking for the ways to harm others. All it meansthat in the right circumstances, there would be no shortage of concentration camp guards who are pretty decent creatures otherwise, loved by their family and kind to their dogs. And there will be even more people willing to look the other way. This one will be among them, a cowardly self-centered bastard she is.

    As for the reason it bothers this one - moral implications aside, self-preservation. This one would rather not be abandoned to die or exploited for minute gain as an opportunity too good to pass presents itself. This one would rather not be trampled to calm other people's alarmed herd instincts. Which means that she cannot approve of such actions and attitudes.
  • Because you never know what you might see.
    What about the ones who don't tolerate concentration camps?

    Besides, it's not as simple as that.  I daresay in the right circumstances, I could have grown up to be a concentration camp guard, but I didn't and, for all my considerable faults, I'm reasonably confident that I never will be.

    But the self-preservation angle does make sense, as, I suppose, do moral stances which aren't motivated by concern for others.
  • edited 2011-06-14 12:21:11
    RE-ANIMATOR
    @Khwar
    Remember that you, as a living being, are born biased. You get more biased as you age and take in data from your surroundings. Every thing you learn is you blotting out all the other things it might otherwise have been, narrowing your view of the Universe.

    Intelligent and complex we may or may not be... BUT the fact that believing we are gives us a biological fitness advantage makes it INSTANTLY suspect...  How can we make fair and objective decisions when our own subconscious pushes its own agenda for the outcome?

  • Because you never know what you might see.
    I don't think that's true.  Anecdotally, I'm fairly confident that I'm considerably more open-minded now than I was a couple of years ago.
  • What about the ones who don't tolerate concentration camps?

    Well, they are exceptions that prove that people are bastards, but you know my stance on this issue. Basically, if people were incapable of acting in any other way, just like wasp is incapable of deciding that maybe it really shouldn't lay it's eggs in a helpless victim so that they may eat if from inside alive, then humans, like said wasp, could not be considered bastards. There cannot be any blame for something humans have no control over.

    But existence of people who refuse to act like bastards proves that the rest are bastards indeed, for they were capable of the same but choose not to. And as such pre-disposition is rooted not in evilness of particular human, but in instincts and reflexes - as it is natural - it's humans who are bastards, not [particular]humans who are bastards.
  • Because you never know what you might see.
    There are no humans who are not particular humans.

    I don't think all people are capable of being non-bastardly.  A bastard is a person who, as the result of prior experiences, winds up behaving in a manner which is morally abhorrent, either because they don't see the problem with their behaviour, or because they don't see any reason to care, or they think they're powerless to do anything else.  A person who is a bastard could not be anything but a bastard at that point in time.  Of course, they may improve under the right circumstances.
  • Glaives are better.

    It's cool to be edgy and cynical.

    Don't get me wrong, humans can be cunts at times, but at least they're interesting cunts. What do earthworms do? They eat and shit dirt. That's boring. 

  • The OP never did return to that thread, nor has he appeared in the Insecurities thread. People shouldn't start threads during spells of emo, they're only going to regret it later.
  • Khwarizmi

    The implications of this seems to be that people do not have free will and can't be held accountable for their choices.

    Which...is rather more cynical attitude than thinking that humans are bastards.
  • edited 2011-06-14 13:04:22
    Because you never know what you might see.
    I didn't say that people don't have free will and can't be held accountable.  You'll note that I didn't say nobody was a bastard.

    But holding somebody accountable for what they have actually done is not the same as being preposterously judgemental.

    Actually, I didn't say I wasn't a cynic, either.  Not that I think of myself as one.
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