People who think making the government bigger will cause corruption.

GuyInWhite

It is true that having the government be too big will cause corruption, but right now most of the corruption in our government is caused because the government is too small, and thus unable to prevent corporate interests from taking over positions of power.

Corporate policy is currently running the nation, focusing on short-term profit rather than long-term stability. To combat that, the government needs to be bigger than it is now.

Forzare

inb4 political flame war

OT: I tend to agree.

Gelzo

I don't think the size of the government is the real problem right now. The flaws in the system aren't all going to go away if the government shrinks or expands.

Tnu1138

So you want a government that will constantly itnerevene in everybodys personal lives and property? Screw that I die free. and I don't see how makign a big all powerful government will do any good in that aspect.

Turtle

The government is so horrendously oversized right now it's not even funny.

We've got all this expenditure on stuff the government has no business spending money on and all these laws about stuff the government has no business legislating.

Tnu1138

exactly what Turtle said. The government should not interfere in the lives of private citizans this is the new road to serfdome.

FrodoGoofballCoTV

It depends on what type of corruption we're talking about IMHO.  Corruption can occur within any organization, corporate, government, or otherwise.

I agree that in general, the bigger the government, the more possibilities there are to detect, restrict, regulate, etc. all forms of corruption.  However, the bigger the opportunity for government corruption.

IMHO a major issue today is corruption due to organizations (corporations, labor unions, even other governments) using lawsuits, lobyists, etc., to gain unfair advantage within government relative to other organizations and individuals.  If government were smaller, there might be less opportunity for people to use loopholes inappropriately.

glennmagusharvey

I would join in but I'll just make my own thread.

Vorpy

Government would be bad regardless if there were a thousand corrupt people running it or a few corrupt people running it.

Deboss

Anything other than a large scale fiery purge will contribute to corruption.

glennmagusharvey

Hey Deboss, can I make an IJBM about your misanthropy?

Tnu1138

Frodo what you just described iwth lobbiests and itnerest groups is the American Corpretist Economic system.

CommandoDude

"exactly what Turtle said. The government should not interfere in the lives of private citizans this is the new road to serfdome."

The government is the only thing protecting me and you from a life of corporate servitude like China. And unfortunately, right now the government is very weak and corporations control too much of it.

Gelzo

I can tell this is shaping up to be another thread I don't want to participate in.

Tnu1138

and you know this for a fACT SIR? THAT IF THE GOVERNMENT DIDN'T INTERFERE IN OUR LIVES ON SUCH A REGULAR BASIS THE EVIL CORPERATIONS WOULD HAVE COMPLETE POWER? All of these orginizations only have power because we the people allow it. and when we start to demand they have power or accept their power is the day we accept defeat.

glennmagusharvey

^^ We seem to be turning into a very rural area.  I see straw on both sides.

Diamonnes

I think he may have something, TNU. The corporations WOULD have obscene amounts of power. Half the point of the government is to keep monopolies from forming.

Well, unless the government's socialist or communist.

Turtle

The point of government is to provide a military and police force to protect its citizens.  No more, no less.

delta534

The US government does have control over interstate commerce according to the constitution.

glennmagusharvey

@Turtle:

Road building and repair?

Legal framework and system which can provide enough stability to do business and live life safely?

Disaster relief?

Turtle

Oh, sorry, not just talking about the US government in that statement.  Should've made that more clear.  The US government, in addition to a military and police force, has the power to establish a patent office and establish roads.  But it still doesn't have the authority to regulate private business.

Diamonnes

Turtle: The government has right to regulate interstate commerce, to establish the value of currency, and to coin said currency.

So yeah, it does.

Also, government exists to (surprise surpise!) govern things.

The military and police force need to be watched, else police brutality and marshal law are inevitable.

Corporations need to be watched, else a monopoly is formed to screw over the People.

There has to be a central authority to build and maintain public properties.

Those are pretty basic things all governments need to do.

Turtle

Where do you get "regulate private business" out of that?

It can establish and coin currency.  Which has nothing to do with regulating how private individuals or groups handle it (beyond theft, anyway).

It can regulate the transportation of goods across state lines.  As in, the transport itself.

glennmagusharvey

No, that's not what commerce means.

In the other thread, you argue that this was the intent of the founders.  Explain.

Diamonnes

And other than that and making sure all businesses follow a standard (you know, so we don't die of lead poisoning, disease, or accidents caused by the workplace being a screaming metal deathtrap) what does it do?

glennmagusharvey

Some sort of ill-defined big-brother-y activity that magically causes businesses to be dulled or fail, apparently?

glennmagusharvey

@Diamonnes: That said, Turtle is arguing that it shouldn't even regulate business at all.  What you're saying is a further contention from the opposite of that.

Diamonnes

I see, he's not claiming that the government is abusing power granted to it as much as saying that said power shouldn't be granted, right?

Bee

Big vs not big is not where corruption comes from.  Where it's big is where corruption comes from -- and right now it's big at the expense of the wrong people.

Tnu1138

Dia you misused the word Regulate in the context and meaning of the time of rati ficaiton it meant "to make regular" not "to restrict" or "to prohibit for example it's illegal in constitutional law for the states to ban purchase or sale of goods or services across state lines. you have to keep in mind what the words themselves ment at the time of ratification Have A Gay Old Time has no relevence here.

CommandoDude

"and you know this for a fACT SIR? THAT IF THE GOVERNMENT DIDN'T
INTERFERE IN OUR LIVES ON SUCH A REGULAR BASIS THE EVIL CORPERATIONS
WOULD HAVE COMPLETE POWER?"

You should read more history. Because, this has actually already happened. The proof is in the past.

"All of these orginizations only have power
because we the people allow it. and when we start to demand they have
power or accept their power is the day we accept defeat"

Too late.

""to make regular" not "to restrict"

Same damn thing. How do you expect to 'make regular' without interfering?