Hunting

fourteenwings

uh, yeah, hunting!

I don't hunt, and I don't ever intend to because, basically, it sounds kind of dumb. As it stands currently, it's also full of gross reinforcements of stereotypes about men (according to the totally not-biased media I consume).

But I don't actually agree with banning hunting, or that it's cruel*. In fact, on some level maybe I'm just infatuated with the romantic vision of the sensitive hunter guy! A lot of people also say it's not sustainable, and with echoes of Mao's Four Pest Campaign I would kind of be along this line, but I mean maintaining populations in order to hunt them is totally a thing.

Mainly, my arguement about refusing to ban hunting comes from a weirdly simple place. As human beings, we are quick to forget, and this time around we've already had ample time to forget that the world is not and will never become a kind place where all the animals get along. We merely sit at the top of the food chain (and I think that's also okay!) because we won that spot. So, at the very least, all (or most) of us having that background noise in the world, that some insane people like to go out into the woods or desert or whatever to kill animals for sport/food/tacky mantlepieces (in a sustainable way!) is important because it reminds us of that.

*I guess hunting is cruel but it's probably less so vs. all the animals we raise for food. I mean, aside from decreasing the amount of beef for slaughter to reduce greenhouse gas emissions I don't think we're doing anything wrong on that front either.

My question is; do I sound insane?

glennmagusharvey

There are actually organized hunts for some animals that have become overabundant due to lack of predation (such as deer in the northern Virginia suburbs outside Washington DC).

I don't think hunting can be scaled up to the point of replacing beef though. If anything, (plant) agriculture would have a better chance of doing that.

lrdgck

My issues with hunting is mostly: a) I don't really see myself as the kind of person who kills shit for fun; b) the hunter society around here has a share of issues that kind of spoil the cool parts. Apart from that - I would have to be some sort of hard vegan or extreme pacifist to be against hunting in principle, and I am not, so while I might feel an occasional distaste I don't see it as that much of an issue.

fourteenwings

I don't think hunting can be scaled up to the point of replacing beef though.

Oh I actually mean replacing beef with some combination of less O-zone layer damaging animals (chickens and such) and beef-replacement vegetable-based proteins, if that wasn't clear.

the hunter society around here has a share of issues

Well, yeah, hunting culture has it's fair share of problems everywhere I guess and it's clear to see where they stem from. Of course, introducing a variety of viewpoints into hunting groups would probably quell this, but it feels like most people aren't super-willing to go for it.

lrdgck

Yeah, I guess people tend to gravitate towards those interests that are consistent with their already established preferences.

Anyways, I've been thinking on it, and it got me curious how much of the view of hunting culture do we share. Like, the media tell me that hunting in the USA means your grandpa takes his rifle off the wall, goes into the forest to shoot something, and gets back to his shed. Elmer Fudd cap optional. Around here hunters are organized in lodges responsible for things like feeding forest animals in the winter and culling the excess population, with a relation to the forestry service unclear to me since I never had anything to do with either. They also subscribe to a peculiar culture full of big and small rituals, brass orchestras, traditional clothing and so on that is quite appealing if you're into that sort of stuff. The bad side is that they're often local old boys' clubs full of cops, businessmen, forestry service folks, politicians, former commies, and other local bigwigs, and it means that they're neither competent nor devoted in their supposed role as amateur envorinmentalists, while also forming a strong lobby against everyone who might act against their interests. Like, hypothetically speaking, a person who got accidentally shot by a drunk hunter.

fourteenwings

I've been thinking on it, and it got me curious how much of the view of hunting culture do we share.

Well when I've been around hunting/hunters, there's very much a vaguely traditional culture but they're people who are pretty well off. There's a sense of elitism, 'we're unmistakably the top of the top of society' feeling, because hunting is prohibitively expensive around here.

This is coupled with lots of quiet machismo they can't really express in stereotypical ways because (for some strange reason) it isn't actually in their nature, it seems. But by George they sure are going to give it a try!

and it means that they're neither competent nor devoted in their supposed role as amateur envorinmentalists

Yeah, I think if there was more effort to present hunting as part of environmentalism, we'd see less... unwelcoming aspects. But it's clear as day why modern environmentalism hasn't embraced it.

lrdgck

Hrh, the hunters we have in Poland do try to present hunting as environmentalism - thing is, this usually means they get into back-and-forth with the "standard" environmentalists, where both sides claim they're the real ones and the other, a bunch of ideologically driven impostors. Hunters being hunters, they err to the side of "eh, there's plenty enough, shoot 'em up".

(Same with forestry, where the issue is to cut down or not to cut down trees. In both of these cases, if you want to be charitable to all sides, it's essentially the issue of preservation versus cultivation.)

So. The media I follow tend to be on the non-hunter side, so I usually get to hear about the calculations of game numbers being done hastily and in flimsy manner, just to have an excuse to hunt the given creature. Hard for me to say how reliable is that information. At the least, some animals' populations seem to be doing very fine and overhunting alone does not seem to be a significant threat to any species.

fourteenwings

Exactly about one year (!) after this thread, I woke up thinking about hunting. Right now; I think I'd go hunting if the opportunity presented itself to me. And yup, that probably means learning to handle and fire a rifle or some other sort of gun.

You could always go trap hunting too, I guess. And probably other forms of hunting I'm not thinking of.

My reasoning has remained the same; but pushed further. Humans stand at the top of the food chain, and the background noise is necessary, but I no longer think I shouldn't participate in it myself. I mean, if I'm going to look at vegetarians and insist that yes, I eat meat and don't believe it's wrong to do so then I have to stare my convictions in the face at least once, right?

glennmagusharvey

I mean, if I'm going to look at vegetarians and insist that yes, I eat meat and don't believe it's wrong to do so then I have to stare my convictions in the face at least once, right?

That feels a little performative (I think that's the right word for it that people are using lately), even if only for your own satisfaction or such.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by background noise.

Stormtroper

I've often see the reverse on the 'net, a vegetarian telling others that they shouldn't eat meat if they aren't willing to personally kill animals, just like how if someone isn't willing to enter a building on fire they should be against firefighters.
(Analogy apt to change if the deal is with (not) having moral issues or whatever else fits.)
But yeah, I agree with your perception of that, getting into hunting for that reason feels like doing something just to prove a point to some hypothetical audience.
More on topic, AFAIK the hunting scene is non-existent here, I don't know anybody who knows anybody who knows about hunting, I assume it'd take a while to get somewhere with game worth hunting, I suppose that's one of the effects of living in a large city. The closes things would be fishing (not angling) and bullfighting (until some years ago anyways).

fourteenwings

But yeah, I agree with your perception of that, getting into hunting for that reason feels like doing something just to prove a point to some hypothetical audience.

Well, I think they have a point to some extent. It's easy to be for something if you avoid seeing it up close. I could very well end up exiting the experience as a vegetarian (though I feel like if it scared me off I'd just keep doing it till I was numb instead, and that's more point-provey).

I want to see if I'd be able to do go through with it, essentially.

glennmagusharvey

Ah, fair enough I guess.