Hipster Spears (no not the Starbucks Britney Spears, the Pokey things on Fire Emblem, you dick)

Vorpy

Like, I get the Guisarme was for pulling niggas off their horses, and sounding like an instrument of volatile relentless rape, but what's the functional difference between a Halbred and a Halberd?

Not listed on here: The Ranseur. This was my slutty OC's primary melee weapon, and it doubled as her stripping pole when she wasn't busy tearing thirsty mother fuckers up with it. However, I don't really get it. What was the crescent blade for? Why not just go with a trident? it has more points.

Also, aren't Tridents the evolutionary descendants of spears?

Like, isn't having more points > one point?

Like, what's the monkey of the spear evolutionary line? What's the homo sapien? or homo longinus?

Naas_Human

Vorpy wrote: »

Like, isn't having more points > one point?

Having multiple points spreads out the force, which means less pressure, so...

glennmagusharvey

calling @MadassAlex

Vorpy

Oh. So would that make it Trident < Spear?

or, was the three points important somehow?

glennmagusharvey

Honestly I know basically nothing about polearms.

Vorpy

You know they're called polearms, you fucking liar

BURN THE SPY, THEY KNOW MORE THAN THEY'RE SHOWING

Naas_Human

This was just a quick search, but most of what I find about tridents as a real life combat weapon was retiarius-type gladiators who used it because they had a fishing theme and most likely not because tridents were particularly effective at piercing armor or anything.

Bee

This is funny because in Awakening I forged a bronze lance for training E-rank cross-promotes and named it Pokey.  So I saw this and was like HOW DID YOU KNOW

Stormtroper

Having multiple points spreads out the force, which means less pressure, so...

Speaking of which, I've always wondered why picks aren't a suitable weapon.

Bee

Too awkward.  Only one point is particularly deadly, and only on a direct hit swung at a weird sideways angle.  Even an axe is more flexible than that.

It's the same reason you don't see actual people fighting with scythes, except it doesn't even have the symbolism to be used in fiction.

glennmagusharvey

One of my friends has opined that the reason Death uses a scythe as his weapon is because that's literally his work tool.

Bee

Well yes.  Thematically, Death's scythe was never intended to be a weapon, and Death was never intended to be a combatant.  Like, even the Revelations horsemen were more abstract than that.  The scythe was to reap souls from people who are a bit too mortally ill/wounded to put up a fight.  He uses it as a weapon in fiction because at this point he'd look weird using anything else.

Just once, I'd like to see something where Death is about to be in a fight, and he calmly sets the scythe down and pulls out something more practical.  His opponent comments on it, and he just shrugs and says they're welcome to try fighting with it themselves.  Bonus points if it turns out there's nothing particularly supernatural about the scythe either.

glennmagusharvey

Well technically in Castlevania he also uses sickles.  Which are another agricultural tool.  Though they just sorta appear out of thin air and go places.

His scythe in Castlevania is only really intimidating because it's big and floaty and goes everywhere and gives him huge range and does all sorts of weird stuff.  And is probably sharp on both sides.  Otherwise it's arguably just used like a pick-axe.

lrdgck

The granddaddy of polearms was the pointy stick. Then somebody got the idea to actually put some sharp thing on top of that stick, like some kind of pointy rock, and so the spear was born.

Trident, as far as I know, was originally a fishing spear. In Greek mythology it was an attribute of Poseidon, presumably because of that fact. That's how it got all that aquatic symbolism. I guess though that it is simpler to make a robust spear than a robust trident, with a limited difference in practicality.

But that is not to say there weren't such things as combat pitchforks in the Middle Ages. I think some cities even kept a number of them in their arsenals. Mind you, to see polearms as a simple tree where one design leads to more developed others, is not really the best way of thinking. Back in the day, lots of weapons came to be when somebody took a random item and fastened it to a pole. So, if you want to really make a genealogical tree, it probably should start with a stick and then it would branch out depending on what to put on the top of it. A tip - spear. A big knife - glaive. An axehead - then it would be either a bardiche or a halberd, depending on some other factors.

Bee

Pitchforks were used because that's what country militias had on hand.  They're kind of unique in that even though you lose pressure, the tines also give you grappling opportunities, but chances are the people armed with them wouldn't be trained enough to exploit that on purpose.

Stormtroper

If tridents are for fishing, I'm guessing it's because having multiple ends makes it much "wider" without losing too much pressure so as to be impractical, and to impair the fish's' movement more once punctured.

MadassAlex

@Vorpy

When it comes to weapons, there isn't always linear evolution from inferior to superior (except in terms of metallurgy). Adaptation to context is key; the long pike that serves you well against cavalry in the open in nearly useless against a swordsman in a corridor. In that case, however, the shorter pollaxe might serve you well. 

Factors such as length, weight, materials, cost, and of course design, all contribute to the purpose and function of any given polearm. For instance, a bill is fairly cheap, as its head is one piece of steel shaped as required; the expensive pollaxe usually has several separate, individually crafted headpieces. So you'd find the pollaxe in the hands of a knight, mercenary, or some professional man-at-arms. The bill would more likely be in the hands of more improvisational infantry, like a militia or pressed troops (although the latter was going out of fashion during the late medieval period, when the widest variety of polearms were in use).

A halberd sits between a bill and a pollaxe, being long like a bill and comprised of a single headpiece, but that headpiece being functionally similar to the head of a pollaxe. The glaives pictured are closer to "battle scythes" than the actual battle scythes pictures, at least in the sense that the head of a scythe would be upturned in order to make follow the length of the haft. The generic "halberd" pictured is just a long axe, or Dane axe, and the "2-hooked spear" is better known as a type of winged spear. 

As above, whichever one gets used is subject to context. In general, though, simplicity with versatility makes the best weapons. The armaments of a professional close combatant in the late medieval period, in a prepared and organised military engagement, would usually look something like so:

• One polearm. If mounted, this is almost invariably a lance. If on foot, it could be just about anything, but pollaxes were very highly thought of. 
• One sword. Again, the specific type is dependent upon taste, but it has to be a kind that can be worn on the waist. Some infantry would have a particularly large sword in place of their polearm, but those kinds of infantry are very specific. 
• Some kind of impact hand weapon, such as a mace or war hammer. Usually very short, but remarkably good at generating and delivering kinetic impact, despite their relatively low weight.
• A dagger, for when combat shortens to literal hand-to-hand distance. Used especially in conjunction with grapples, and very easily used to exploit gaps in armour. 
• In some cases, a shield. Shields were not as popular during the late medieval period, given the defensive benefits of plate armour (and often, the availability of generic plate armour pieces), but some types remained in use in some contexts. 

A few more notes about the mechanisms of the weapons in question, and the way combat was conducted:

• Many weapons had some kind of ridged spike included in the design. This is because a spike can penetrate a plate of steel armour where the point of a blade can't, especially when one's opponent is braced against an object and the energy can't dissipate. An opponent on the ground, or shoved against a wall or tree would be very vulnerable to an attack from a spike, such as the top-spike of a pollaxe.  
• Grappling was a part of combat with any weapon, but particularly those of sword length (roughly three feet or one meter) or shorter. Grapples, locks, and throws don't really care about the armour an opponent wears. 
• Capturing an opponent for ransom was a significant element of late medieval combat, particularly warfare, but also sometimes in more personal circumstances. You can loot a dead opponent if you like, but a captured knight or man-at-arms is likely to be worth more than the equipment on them. Making an opponent yield and detaining them was therefore as much an economic skill as it was a martial skill. 

tl;dr: context

Bee

Length is also a big part of why spear fencers would have to be very well-trained to make use of tined weapons.  At the far end of the spear, you're at an extreme mechanical disadvantage, and unless you know exactly what you're doing a sudden catch is more likely to screw you over than the opponent.

It's why a lot of those polearms just have little nubs instead of tines or barbs.  Deflecting an attack is safer than outright catching it and letting it bind.  That, and keeping it from going all the way in and getting too stuck.

lrdgck

Now, talking about winged spears. You mean the early medieval model? I remember reading that while those little wings on the sides are commonly thought to prevent the spear from getting lodged in the enemy, they actually were used in spear fencing. At the moment I'm in no position to swear by it, however.

Then there were the rest of spear-like weapons with wings and stuff on the side. Most of them Renaissance-era with Italian names, if I'm not mistaken. Can't say much about them, besides the fact that the wings tended to be hooks for unsaddling horsemen or just to give the weapon a bigger chance of wounding hit.

Zennistrad

That reminds me, I recently commissioned someone to draw a Digimon OC of mine loosely based off the Shinto deity Ame-no-Uzume-No-Mikoto, who uses a spear in some stories. The design of her weapon is based on the jumonji yari with paper tassles reminiscent of a gohei (a wand-like object with used in Shinto rituals, Touhou fans may recognize it as that thing Reimu uses) to demonstrate the character's power as both physical and spiritual. I'm not sure if it would be considered insensitive for inaccurately depicting Japanese spirituality, but given that Digimon has interpreted the Shinto god Susano'o as a sentai-esque figure with a massive laser cannon, I figure it wouldn't feel too out of place.

Being reminded of that, though, brings me to a broader point about spears in media: spears and pole weapons tend to be weapons used by female characters. This is especially true in Japanese media, where the naginata is considered primarily feminine for some reason (apparently something to do with it being a traditional weapon of samurai's wives), but it seems to me that female characters in general tend to have a greater affinity for polearms than swords. If I had to guess, it's that many works of fiction tend to portray spears as focusing more on range, agility, and graceful movement while swords tend to be portrayed as having a greater focus on direct, straightforward attacks and physical strength: so cultural norms would make men seem more appropriate for swords and women more appropriate for spears.

Vorpy

Is that a Britney Spears joke? :P nah
But I see more bitches with bows than I do with spears. On an unre note the jumonji yari looks a lot like the Ranseur I was talking about. Along with a Spetum. So, what is the difference between a Jumonji Yari, Ranseur and Spetum?

Bee

^^ It's funny, because if anything a polearm is way, way heavier than even a longsword.

lrdgck

I was thinking Western fantasy likes to give girls bows.

--edit--

Vorpy: yari is Japanese, the others are European. In general it's not uncommon to find more names than weapon types, especially when it comes to polearm variants. The distinguishing features may be the length of these wings, whether they are sharp or not, and if yes, then on which side.