"That world doesn't need heroes"

GAP

I notice that there some people who have a low tolerance of superheroes but how much of it is a legitimate gripe with superheroes, cynicism or even values dissonance? I notice that in Japan, they seem to have a low tolerance for meddlers or people stand in the way of other people's affairs. I guess might be a little broad but it seems as though that some people whether they be Warren Ellis or Gen Urobuchi have low tolerance for these types.

Naas_Human

it seems as though that some people whether they be Warren Ellis or Gen Urobuchi have low tolerance for these types.

By "these types" do you mean "meddlers" or "superheroes"?

lrdgck

Do we mean real people who don't like superhero fiction, or something in-universe? And superhero fiction, or some aspect of the character type usually represented by the protagonists of these stories?

Kraken

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Naas_Human

^ Or are at least aware of it.

vandro

He loves superheroes, in the same way a serial killer loves his victims. As in, as a target for him to destroy. Have you seen Fate/Zero?

Kraken

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Naas_Human

Kiritsugu was never really presented as a hero. For one thing, I don't recall any of the other characters finding him morally sound, except Iri. Saber especially found him repugnant. Also, he wanted a miracle machine like the grail because he knew he could never save the world, and the boat sequence was basically Avenger telling him "you can totally end suffering. By ending everyone. Because that's the kind of person you are".

Kraken

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vandro

I wasn't talking about Kiritsugu as an individual, I was talking about the servants. They are heroes, and villains, and kiritsugu is his mouthpiece here: The only way for heroes to exist is for calamities to happen.

And the Servants are superheroes before being called superheroes.

Kraken

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Naas_Human

How is Kiritsugu, the guy whose methods and ideals was demonstrated to be absolutely useless for his goal, the author's mouthpiece?  Plus being a prequel meant that Kerry was set up for failure from the get go. The only way Kiritsugu as the author's mouthpiece could work is if Urobuchi finds himself some sort of moral failure.

vandro wrote:

The only way for heroes to exist is for calamities to happen.

Only Kiritsugu says anything remotely like that in Zero. No other character has something against the concept of heroes. Kirei was trying to find his own way to live, and he was pretty cool with his own hero buddy (Gilgamesh, not Hassan). Tokiomi and Kayneth were more preoccupied with the mage lifestyle, I don't recall Waver having anything against heroes in general, Kariya was more obsessed with doing things for Aoi, and Ryuunosuke doesn't care about anything beyond seeing people die (plus his Servant was never presented as a heroic figure in any sense).

Kraken

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vandro

Again, folk heroes and epic heroes are not the same as superheroes.

I don't necesarily agree, but I see your point. A superheroes is an icon, an identity one wears, an emblem, but after so many reinventions, retellings and reinterpretations, I don't think folk heroes and epic heroes are that much different than the everchaning facets of the mothern idea of a superhero.

The only way Kiritsugu as the author's mouthpiece could work is if Urobuchi finds himself some sort of moral failure.

Not a moral failure, but having to tell that the audience some factor of the story in an exposition manner, like hitomi confronting sayaka, she is acting out pure narrative necessity to expose something at a character, much like kiritsugu and his babling about heroism is bad js there to confront saber.

Naas_Human

Pretty sure that says more about Kiritsugu than Urobuchi himself. If anybody's dialogue when they confront Saber is supposed to reflect the author's message, it would be Iskander's, considering how much the show glorifies his "morals". Like right after the three king Servants talk about kingship, Iskander confronts the Hassans and goes on even more about what he believes a king should do, before showing off how amazing he is. And unlike Kiritsugu, Iskander's characterization is pretty much entirely Urobuchi's idea.

And no way Kerry confronting Saber was "pure narrative necessity to expose something", seeing as Saber's "weakness" as a hero and king was already alluded to by Iskander a few times prior to that. More importantly, something like that was bound to happen when you put a merciless murderer and an overly-honourable knight on the same team, even if this story was less gloomy.

Noimporta

And unlike Kiritsugu, Iskander's characterization is pretty much entirely Urobuchi's idea.

This is a pretty important point, as much as we all like to rag on Urobuchi, and as much as he deserves it, Kiritsugu is a Nasu character, and he bears responsibility for his strawman (OK, maybe not strawman, but strictly specific brand that is used for the purpose of conveying the novel's morals) utilitarianism.

Naas_Human

Another thing is that all the Saber-bashing in Zero is at least partially to set up her issues in Stay Night, so the story could not have anyone be positive towards her reign and make her regret it any less. And considering that it sets up for her getting over said issue (at least in Fate route), Kerry's low opinion of her loses a bit of weight.

GAP

So Ellis and Urobuchi have nothing against superheroes? Why do they often get bashed on the internet?

 

Noimporta

The fans, it's never not the fans.

GAP

I suppose. I notice that the fans takes things a little too far by bashing heroes altogether but what exactly is wrong with being a hero?

Kraken

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GAP

Hmmmmm that does sound more like itr buy iseems that fans go the extra mile and say that being a hero is wrong.