"gothic" (and "gothic lolita") fashion has nothing to do with Gothic architecture

glennmagusharvey

and Gothic architecture > gothic fashion

Naas_Human

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120727141718/gosick/images/5/58/Gosick_(2).GIF

Don't mind me, I just wanted to use a picture from this.

lrdgck

in b4 Alex

 

edit: for that matter, Gothic architecture has nothing to do with the Goths. 

Ironweaver

The fashion originates from the goth music subculture, which was lyrically inspired by gothic fiction (called that way simply because most of the stories were set in old Gothic castles, monasteries and cathedrals). So it actually is tied to Gothic architecture, though very indirectly.

 The architectural style itself still has nothing to do with the actual Goths.

Naas_Human

in b4 Alex

Nah, to get him here we need to talk about those actual Goth people.

lrdgck

*ahem*

GOTHIC ARMOUR

...okay, now we're done. The Goths should in theory be more likely to lure out Miss Anne, before her turn to Social Justice, although I remember her expressing lack of interest in non-viking-related parts of the Germanic mythos.

MadassAlex

It confuses me, too. Like, what does Gothic Lolita have to do with punching Romans? 

Anyway, if you'll allow me some conjecture, such names probably came about because using the term "German" to refer to those people of Central Europe was not always a thing. Ergo we get terms such as "Teutonic Knights", "Gothic architecture" -- terms meant to reflect an origin and influence from Germanic Central Europe, but outside the purview of significant Scandinavian influence. Furthermore, the idea of a national identity was relatively young during the Middle Ages; while the Swadians may have spoken the same broad language as the Prussians, for instance, they almost certainly considered themselves different peoples. 

This is further confused by England, which was developing remarkably modern political sensibilities during this time. Given that much of the study of the Middle Ages is based around England in the anglophone sphere, we have a situation where the way the English thought about things during the Middle Ages is considered the default rather than as a variation. So it's worth being cautious, because the diversity of Classical and medieval thought on political and ethnic identity is staggering. While some of the shorthand provided to us through popular media and mainstream documentaries can be a useful shorthand in determining where we stand in relation to the historical peoples of Europe, it is just that -- shorthand, and therefore reductive. 

tl;dr names and shit I guess who the hell knows

InsanityAddict

Gothic romance did have some direct inspiration for gothic fashion in the form of those dresses the fainting maidens always wore. Also, I will plug this book every time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightmare_Abbey

lrdgck

Just for the record, I don't know if the name "Gothic" was supposed to have anything to do with the Germans, but in the minds of Enlightenment intellectuals it was certainly meant as "barbaric". Medieval = ugly = barbaric = Gothic. Gets a bit funny once you remember the Goths themselves fawned over the Roman past no worse than those folks. That's how, I am told, the name came to be.

MadassAlex

Or that. 

There's another topic here, but I think I'll start a new thread for it. 

lrdgck

Talking about period parodies of Gothic literature, I remember some text about that in a SF&F magazine. There was some fun "recipe" on how to make Gothic fiction by taking a piece of sentimentalist fiction and replacing the crucial parts of the plot. You know: swap the maid for the monk, swap the gazebo for the castle, and so on.