Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
If you use an @yahoo.com email or any related Yahoo services, they have blocked us also due to "user complaints"
-UE
My friend's budding homophobia.
I'm not one to accuse people of homophobia just because they say something about gays that I personally don't like or agree with, but I had a very distressing conversation with one of my best friends a few days ago, and I feel it's permanently marred my opinion of her.
I was venting to her about how so many people use the "freedom of speech" card to defend homophobic statements, because having freedom of speech doesn't mean you're exempt from criticism. She responded by telling me that gay people have been getting on her nerves in general lately, because all they ever do is "whine" about how they don't have the same rights as everyone else. She said she's had a few negative experiences with gay people recently and that now she's starting to lean toward the anti-gay side, and told me that I was one of the few gays she didn't have a problem with nowadays.
She went on to say that marriage is a small issue that gay people are blowing out of proportion; according to her, they shouldn't even want to get married because marriage in the United States is a "Christian" thing (ignoring the fact that some gays are Christian and that people of other religions can marry here too). Furthermore, she denies that the gay community has ever faced any genuine persecution, suggesting that they aren't treated unfairly in our society because they always have the option of pretending to be straight in order to receive the same respect as everyone else. In countries where being gay can get you executed, she says, it's their own fault for risking their lives just so they can sleep with someone. She believes that the reason gay marriage is still unrecognized by most states is proof that no one gives a shit and that everyone should just drop the subject, and that the people who gathered at Chick-fil-A to congratulate it on opposing gay marriage are just individuals who are sick and tired of how obnoxious the gay community is.
Despite all the sweeping generalizations she made about gay people, she has a habit of getting on my case whenever I say even a single bad thing about Christianity, hammering it into my head that not all Christians are fundamentalists. To reiterate, this person has been one of my best friends for years. But I... don't think this friendship can continue. Does that make me petty? She's always been the type of person to make hyperbolic statements about groups of people based on prejudices and stereotypes, but that tendency usually doesn't manifest in such a malicious way. I've lost most of my respect for her after talking to her about this.
Comments
If anything, I'm impressed you lasted that long.
If she's one of your best friends and has been for years, I'd almost say it might be worth the effort of finding studies and/or articles with certifiable facts about things like: what persecution gay people have gone through in the past, or go through today; the differences between a civil union and marriage, and why marriage is preferable; discussions with gay people who are also Christians and how they interpret the Bible and so on. If she's just on the wrong track as a result of a few poor interactions, then it could be a matter of a horribly skewed perspective and a lack of understanding, as opposed to unmitigated malice.
But: given her opinion on countries where homosexuality is punishable by death/staying in the closet, and her propensity for harmful generalizations, I'm leaning towards "this is terrible; don't waste your time on someone like that", considering that the article ideas I mentioned might just fall on deaf ears.
I forgot to mention that when I informed her about how gay people were persecuted during the holocaust, she dismissed my point because Jews and Roma were mistreated as well.
. . . I generally try not to say anything too harsh about the acquaintances of fellow IJBMers, so I'm holding back a bit, but if she's that incapable of getting the point or understanding multifaceted problems, any further talk will literally get you nowhere. It might be better to break it off and let her dig her own grave. If she wants to say shit like that, you don't have to put up with it.
Just abandon her, politely if you can. You really shouldn't have to put up with this shit.
Meh, if you just knew all the bullshit my friends regularly spout. I just can't afford to be even a bit phased at it any more. If I abandoned each and every one of them over stuff like this, I am pretty sure that I would have no friends left.
Get her drunk and get her to make out with a girl. The best cure for homophobia is a gay experience.
Alternatively, just stop talking to her about politics/religion and politely ask her to change the subject whenever she brings it up. She sounds like one of those 24/7 butthurt folks who take everything way too seriously, so I hope it works for you.
I've been having similar experiences with some of my co-workers lately.
Like, there's this girl who's friends with my group of friends (Not me though. I don't really like her to be honest. Even if she wasn't a discriminating person anyway) and she's constantly saying the n-word and whenever the topic of homosexuality comes up (Which is fairly often because we have one bisexual with a boyfriend and a homosexual with gender dysphoria with us) she kinda makes these really annoying "Oh so you have a friend? Do you go to his house and...[innuendo of your own preference]" jokes that really get on my nerves.
And she's the best friend of the girl I like so hooray for awkwardness.
...You'd skeezily manipulate her into an act of dubious consent. Which she'd probably look back on as something she did for attention and further illegitimize the entire idea of being gay as a persistent orientation instead of a rebel phase.
Best cure for homophobia is to know gay people who aren't the obnoxious San Francisco stereotypes that get the most exposure -- same as a phobia of any other demographic.
^Given that he then said "alternatively" and suggested something more reasonable, I'm pretty sure that was a joke...
Dammit I've been playing Toki Tori for six hours. I'm not gonna be able to detect sarcasm right now because my cognitive skills are dominated by duck-chickens.
Also I met a lot of people at UO who'd suggest that unironically, so...
I truly want to know: Is being Gay mutually exclusive to being Christian, and whatever the answer is, does that matter?
The Bible forbids anal sex, IIRC, but that's the full extent of it. That said, the same section of the bible also forbids all sorts of obscure stuff nobody pays any attention to (like sitting on anything someone with an STD might have sat on), so IMO, if gays can't be Christians, Christians don't exist.
That, and several of the breakaway denominations are opening up on the matter. Episcopalians just got around to putting it on paper, but have been okay with it for a while now, for instance.
And, you know, dissent.
> it's their own fault for risking their lives just so they can sleep with someone.
@ OP: Your friend doesn't seem to understand that human sexuality isn't simply about who one wants to sleep with.
>implying San Francisco stereotypes aren't the best type of gay people
Of the few gay peeps I know, the two dudes who dress campy have the best taste in music, most easygoing attitude and are not afraid to poke fun at themselves.
Also, ask to see the labels of her clothing for some good ol' Leviticus nitpicking.
^ A gay club is one of the best clubs in Belgrade. :P
Re:Bible
Actually, Paul said that being homosexual (as well as being effeminate) will keep you out of heaven.
There's this, too:
As well as numerous other references to homosexuality; they are usually refered to as "sodomites".
There's also a bit of highly interesting stuff, such as in the passages from which the Rapture doctrine was derived:
Since the Bible was being written over centuries, by dozens of different people, you can expect inconstitencies.
She doesn't believe homosexuality is wrong; she just sees gay marriage as an unimportant issue that isn't worth anyone's time.
It's weird, considering she once told me that all straight men were horrible people and gay men were "angels". Seems like she's only capable of generalizing.
I agree with her halfway. It's too unimportant to let stupid people try to prolong the inevitability of gay marriage, good god, it's something not worth of picking a fight about it, live and let live.
Yeah. She thinks it's stupid to fight for and says things will never change anyway.
^I've heard that argument thrown around, but does anyone know exactly what and how nothing will change? It's something I've been wanting explained for a while now
Her reasoning was that people have been pushing for gay marriage for years and so far it's only been legalized in a handful of states, while other minorities like blacks have already obtained all of their rights--ergo, there's been no considerable progress and people should stop caring.
So she obviously doesn't realize that the existence of gay marriage in any state is a significant feat, given that sodomy laws were a very recent thing.
Gay peeps are still second-class citizens, the people who argue that it's purely a symbolic gesture are absolute tardbaskets: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/marriage-rights-benefits-30190.html
i always thought the cure for homophobia was to realize that not conforming to heteronormative standards isn't actually bad at all?
To add onto what Ironweaver has already said - that passage was a fine selection, by the way - the original Hebrew text of the "as with womankind" line is extremely ambiguous in its phrasing, with two words for "man" being used, one of which was usually used to describe males not formally inducted into the faith: Uncircumcised men, gentiles, and - this is the important part - young boys. Considering the context, it's probably about that last group.
Of course, some people believe that all homosexuals are paedophiles...
I wasn't aware of that; the Leviticus thing you referenced was actually what I was talking about, since it's specifically about sex.
Well, Paul was talking about the vices and follies of Roman society in general; gay sex was just one part of it, next to binge drinking and idolatry.
Doesn't Leviticus also say we shouldn't be eating shrimp?
Shellfish in general. "Whatsoever has no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you."
@AXavierB:
I suppose she's one of those people who isn't aware that things happen in countries outside of the United States?