Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
If you use an @yahoo.com email or any related Yahoo services, they have blocked us also due to "user complaints"
-UE
I think I've figured out transgenderism bugs me
Not in the "pisses me off" sense, but in the "headscratchers" sense. I think I've figured out why transgenderism seems so odd to me. It's because it seems to conflict with my understanding of gender. And before you misunderstand me: NOT in a fundie way.
I don't believe there's as much difference between men/boys and women/girls as society usually implies there is. So, as such, I see a minimal role/meaning for gender differentiation, and thus gender identity itself.
Transgenderism, however, involves people who really feel strongly about gender identity, which implies they feel that gender differentiation not just, say, a thing, but is even a big enough thing for them to feel so strongly about it and its role in defining who they are. Yes, some cisgender people also feel this way, and I similarly disagree with them.
Thus, in a way, transgenderism seems to imply a "hypergenderified" worldview, which I disagree with.
One open question I have from thinking through this: If not for the purpose of gender differentiation (i.e. associating oneself with traits, be they real or imagined, of one gender as opposed to the other gender), why do some people feel so strongly about gender identity? Or is this in fact the reason?
Comments
I feel like this is a rather insensitive viewpoint to hold, but I find this to be a very articulate statement of my own thoughts, all the same.
Open question: how is this viewpoint insensitive?
I dunno, I feel like it sort of invalidates gender concern, which I, personally, can't really attach the same value to that others obviously do. I mean, I don't know why gender has to be a concern, but then that's why I'm not transgendered. Am I making sense? Your post was pretty good about acknowledging that your viewpoint comes more from interpretation of it as odd than a sense that gender concern is wrong, but I feel like maybe it's a touchy subject.
I've given up trying to debate this subject. Just because I can't understand why someone feels a certain way doesn't mean they'll magically stop feeling that way.
(Aondeug says that for her, it's about bodily identity, and compares it to having a phantom limb. I still don't understand that, but it seems like a decent analogy.)
Try to think of it less as a hypergenderified worldview and more as a person conciously choosing the lifestyle that makes him or her happy.
A note to any transsexuals reading this: if you really want to understand how someone would be incapable of understanding transsexuality, read the writings of transhumanists. Some talk about how transhumanism will give everyone the body they feel comfortable with, but most talk about how transhumanism will give everyone the optimal body for the tasks they wish to perform, with a marked lack of understanding that anyone could possibly want a body for any reason other than that it's optimal for what they want to do.
"I don't believe there's as much difference between men/boys and women/girls as society usually implies there is. So, as such, I see a minimal role/meaning for gender differentiation, and thus gender identity itself."
I used to think so too, but then you consider how society lacks understanding of deviation from expected gender roles, so even androgyny is viewed as "odd".
That being said, one should not confine themselves to a stereotype. Female, male, agendered, cis, or trans, you are still an independent-thinking human being and thus deserve to be treated as such.
Transgenderism basically falls into my "Treat people how they reasonably want to be treated" rule. If someone feels like and wants to be treated as female that's no skin off my back.
^ Pretty much my view on it, as well. Part of the reason I don't concern myself with it is also because I don't see how it harms anyone. If anything, gender roles are the harmful aspect of this whole thing.
Not because people are less likely to mention cisgenderdom because it's assumed default? Not because they express it in myriad non-direct ways?
Well that's hardly a representative sample is it?
Yeah, threads about gender tend to attract gender non-conforming people just because they tend to have more of a vested interest in the topic than cisgender people.
It's like a thread about sexual orientation. Most straight people never really think about being straight, so you'll see a disproportionate number of queer people there.
I found this article to be illuminating.
Why do these kinds of discussions consistently ignore agendered or androgynous perspectives in favour of (ironically) a cis/trans binary?
Some people care about things you don't. I never understood why people are particularly surprised about this. I mean, I am male and feel male and I don't feel female. I don't identify with, um, my perception of women because of how I was raised and the way people always told me how to behave in one way or another. It's kinda bothersome in a way, because I often feel like my lack of identification with women comes from a misunderstood perception of what being a woman entails, but I think that my issue is that in a lot of ways, gender is social, but I don't think it is entirely. I believe there's an important psychological component that we just haven't figured out yet.
Yeah, I feel like the ideals of transgenderism and the ideals of diminishing or removing gender constructs are somewhat opposed.
That said, doublethink is a thing, so I just do that. I can be sympathetic and accepting towards both perspectives without necessarily choosing one and disregarding the other. And frankly, it's probably true that some level of gender constructs will be with us forever, for better or worse. While there might be some level of philosophical conflict, there ultimately doesn't seem to be any practical conflict.
^Puh-retty much. In this case I just ascribe more to care ethics rather than justice ethics and react to people on a personal level.
I'm basically with Malk on this one. To me, there are two things you can do when encountering a transgendered person:-
1. Start an argument about how they're somehow wrong for being what they are; or,
2. Roll with it.
I would choose 2, because it's the civilised thing to do, even though there are philosophical arguments like GMH's. However, people are more important than philosophy. I'm also amused to think how this thread would have gone on tumblr or even parts of Something Awful, with accusations of "check your privilege" all round.
I tend to side with Justice Ethics most of the time. However, whatever someone wants to call themselves is their business and I shall comply. And reading that article makes me think I am cissexist or something, because I fundamentally disagree on the "sex as construct" thing. Citing examples of the myriad biological anomalies that happens with chromosomes does not make those anomalies any less of an anomaly.
blah blah blah sex and gender are different blah blah blah sex is objective blah gender is construct blah blah
I was commenting on the link Wicked posted, blah blah, figure out context, blah blah, the person in the blog denounces the concept of sex as objective, blah blah.
I'm silly blah
>I'm also amused to think how this thread would have gone on tumblr or even parts of Something Awful, with accusations of "check your privilege" all round.
Honestly that phrase annoys me so much, if only for how fucking vague and overused it is.
I can see what you're going by. It's like "you want to be treated as X instead of Y? But, I wanna treat everybody the same". Still, that's there's the (somewhat) different issue than bodily identity. Like, "this body is totally wrong for me and I can't stand it". Considering the "treat everyone the same" thing, I'm not sure what to say about cases of "I want to be treated as [category]" that somehow aren't "this body is wrong for me".
I don't mind people being transgender or GQ, so long as they don't play the "hurr only stupid people believe in being cisgender or having any gender at all" card which unfortunately I've observed at least once.
Hell, two of my close friends are trans*, one of which is currently in the early stages of transition.
you guys should really read the article
just about all of these questions are answered already
I'm with vandro on this one, actually. The article works under the assumption that gender is an entire social construct, but the thing is, that doesn't explain why people are trans*, then that really really doesn't explain it. Granted, she says "lol homones", but if that's an answer, then I'm a fucking mermaid.