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My predisposition towards capitalism

Tnu1138Tnu1138
edited 2011-06-21 20:41:26 in General
Same thing sort of bugs me Honestly Socialism just looks too much like communism to me and puts too much power in to the hands of the state. I guess I gravitated in this direction in my senior year of high school after taking a bit of US history I truely admired the ideals of Thomas Jefferson. Free society and Free economy. Right to property and person. Took me a long time to discover that Classical Liberalism was still alive and well and it depreses me that it is so hated by the people. Who either gravitate towards Conservatism or Left-liberalism. (I don't use the word social liberalism to describe it because the word can often be confused with cultural liberalism which while an aspect of left-liberalism doesn't quite describe it properly.) The notion that you can have social freedom without economic freedom or economic freedom without social freedom just doesn't add up to me.

Comments

  • NyktosNyktos
    a little muffled
    It bugs me that "more economic freedom" and "more capitalism" are seen as synonymous.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    Well capitalism done properly is pretty much whedere the government doesn't get involved in the economy creating a free market without favoritism or burdons by the state. Socialism by it's veyr nature isn't a free market because the state has their grubby little hands in everything. Corporatism is probobly the worst of them especially Fascism and Crony Capitalism/State Capitalism.
  • NyktosNyktos
    a little muffled
    I still don't understand how you intend to prevent monopolies from forming and your system turning into the corporatism you so hate if you refuse to allow any regulation of the market at all.
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    Tnu, why are you so much more afraid of the power of governments than the power of moneyed interests?

    Between the two I'd rather have a government; governments are accountable to the people while megacorps are accountable at most to shareholders and at worst to the whims of a board of directors.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    because I see them as one and the same (see Cronyism) I see government as the force that allows such things to happen through protectionism and favoritism.
  • NyktosNyktos
    a little muffled
    In theory, your system is nice. In reality, you need to compromise and allow regulation such that the market stays free.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    I've actually leaned closer to economic centrism with right-leanings but regulation and free are opposites. How does that work? I'm willing to compremise  on the issue of monopolies and trust busting but that's about it. I'm also itnerested in abolishing corporate welfare.
  • NyktosNyktos
    a little muffled
    Monopolies and trust busting are the kinds of things I was referring to. Regulation and freedom are not opposites; you're conflating freedom with anarchy.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    anarchey is freedom freedom from the state, the church, from the will of the masses or the few. That is true freedom.
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    edited 2011-06-21 21:06:12
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    > I see government as the force that allows such things to happen through protectionism and favoritism.

    I don't think you get this: The market does not stay fair by itself.  There is no such thing as a perfectly free market.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    then color me dead if the violence of the state is deemed nessecfaRY THEN WE'RE FUCKED.
  • GLORIOUSLeaderGLORIOUSLeader
    When in Turkey, ROCK THE FUCK OUT
    Did your caps lock key break or something?

    Anyway, the US is more fascistic than, say, Iceland. But it's not as much as many other countries; Hell, Britain is probably more of a police state than the US is. Besides, I'll take "not having the threat of being shot in the face" over "the police don't monitor your phone calls" every day. 
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    Tnu: Why do you also assume that violence is necessary?

    Why can't people actually settle things in a civilized fashion, with some rules but with some good conscience, and a handshake to start and end negotiations?

    ...because that's what people in real life do.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    Because violence is the default modus operandi of the state.
  • ClockworkUniverseClockworkUniverse
    OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!
    Umm...I personally have never even heard of a corporation being attacked by the U.S. military because it was violating a law.
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    edited 2011-06-21 22:53:38
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    > Because violence is the default modus operandi of the state.

    Uh, no.

    It was several hundred years ago.

    Since then, people have learned to generally get along without pointing guns and knives at each other all the time.

    I know, it's shocking.
  • MadassAlexMadassAlex
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    It's true that the power of a state is still based on coercive power, though.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    Exactly that's what i'm talking about.
  • MadassAlexMadassAlex
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    To elaborate, a state's power is still essentially based on its capacity and authority to physically detain you and/or your belongings. Physical beatings and the like aren't the general standard for enforcing the law, but because the law derives it authority from its capacity to punish you, it can still be considered coercive.
  • MousaThe14MousaThe14
    Writer, Artist, Obscure.
    Tnu, your inability to comprehend or even see reason never ceases to amaze.
  • NyktosNyktos
    a little muffled
    Eh, once you have rules you need some way of enforcing them. Unfortunate, but true.

    As for Tnu, he's just absurdly idealistic.
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    I'd say more like absurdly dystopian.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    That doesn't make much sense Glenn how can a person be dystopian?
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    Well, if not dystopian, whatever is the opposite of idealistic.

    I guess you could be both at the same time, though.  It makes sense if you think that things are currently so bad and will be so much better in a state of anarchy--because, at least, I think things are pretty reasonably good right now and things will get a lot worse in a state of anarchy.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    right now i'm just shooting for Minarchy.
  • NyktosNyktos
    edited 2011-06-22 15:23:27
    a little muffled
    @glennmagusharvey:
    Well, if not dystopian, whatever is the opposite of idealistic.
    Cynical?

    Cynical about government, maybe, but absurdly idealistic about the world's capability to work without it.
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