Helping others is socialism!

MousaThe14 · 2011-05-12 15:17:20

Sigh.....

HIDE YOUR MUUUSSSSSLIIIIIIIMS! HIDE YOUR JEEWWWWWS

Bastion · 2011-05-12 15:17:24

I'm having a hard time qualifying "because God says so" as a logical reason. The threat of repercussion for crime should be enough if you need to search for a "logical" reason. But even before that, there's empathy and socialized feelings of guilt (what Freud would call the superego).

"Unless the Bible is true, then having empathy is stupid and detrimental to one's self. Niceness tends to come at the cost of personal gain."

Yes, but people do things that are stupid and detrimental to themselves all the time. Though, if there really are no other advantages--if you don't feel good when you help someone else out, if you don't care about anyone for any reason beyond what they can offer you--it still has the advantage of encouraging others to do the same for you.

Forzare · 2011-05-12 15:18:08

Unless the Bible is true, then having empathy is stupid and detrimental
to one's self. Niceness tends to come at the cost of personal gain.

u cause me physical pain

y u cause me physical pain, turtle

Nyarly · 2011-05-12 15:18:29

...Yeah, I thought so.

Alright, Turtle comes on my "morons, who can't be taken serious"-list, joining Savage Heathen and Kino.

Tnu1138 · 2011-05-12 15:19:19

I can take Heathen Seirously but Turtle just crosses the line.

Forzare · 2011-05-12 15:19:39

Alright, Turtle comes on my "morons, who can't be taken serious"-list

Seconded.

Turtle · 2011-05-12 15:19:49

The threat of repercussion for crime should be enough if you need to search for a "logical" reason.
These things should not be criminalized if there's no objective standard to classify them as wrong.

But even before that, there's empathy and socialized feelings of guilt (what Freud would call the superego).
Which is stupid. We're thinking human beings, are we not? We're capable of suppressing such silly, outdated beliefs.

I seem to be meeting a general response of "you're nuts" or "you're a moron." Can anyone tell me why?

Forzare · 2011-05-12 15:20:27

But even before that, there's empathy and socialized feelings of guilt (what Freud would call the superego).
Which is stupid. We're thinking human beings, are we not? We're capable of suppressing such silly, outdated beliefs.

Stop strawmanning.

Tnu1138 · 2011-05-12 15:20:31

What is iwth all the hate of Heathen? He's always been a good friend to me and often spoke out for the people and against tyranny.

Forzare · 2011-05-12 15:21:18

Well, my first memory of seeing any of his posts was where he said he wanted to see all of the cops murdered, so...

Turtle · 2011-05-12 15:21:47

Stop strawmanning.
I'm not. These are my own beliefs, assuming that the Bible is false.

MousaThe14 · 2011-05-12 15:21:50

Sigh.....

HIDE YOUR CAPITALIIIIIISTS! HIDE YOUR SEEAAAAAAFOOOOOOOOOD

Forzare · 2011-05-12 15:22:42

What...?

I honestly don't even know what to say to that.

I really, really don't.

Tnu1138 · 2011-05-12 15:25:08

Wow Turtle you're a hypocrite speeking out agaisnt Capitalism all of a usdden becaus "the Bible says so". I would have more to say but I fear the ban hammer. You take the trope Word of God far too literally and you need to just leave and go to Conservepedia where things make sense to your batshit fundi worldview that eveyrone should have no social freedoms and conform to your standards because the bible says you should enforce th at by law and the threat of force instead of the constent of the governed. You want a theocracy so badly start your own and leave us out of it.

glennmagusharvey · 2011-05-12 15:25:57

> Do nothing to knowlingy cause harm

But what if you were doing something that you didn't know caused harm, and it caused harm?

Would someone have the right to tell you that that is causing harm?

^ Don't worry, this site was made for these sorts of arguments.

Turtle · 2011-05-12 15:26:07

What? When did I speak out against capitalism?

Tnu1138 · 2011-05-12 15:26:58

and completley ignoring the rest of my point. and if you donh't know you are causing harm there is little youc an do.

glennmagusharvey · 2011-05-12 15:27:03

> Unless the Bible is true, then having empathy is stupid and detrimental
to one's self. Niceness tends to come at the cost of personal gain.

How do you measure personal gain?

glennmagusharvey · 2011-05-12 15:27:47

> and completley ignoring the rest of my point. and if you donh't know you are causing harm there is little youc an do.

Well, what if someone tells you that it is causing harm?

And what about people who are not like you, and insist that they ought to be able to continue causing harm? See, it would be nice if everyone were as nice as you, but...that's why we have rules.

Forzare · 2011-05-12 15:28:33

Okay, since apparently you literally can't be a decent human being without someone who wields eternal power over your soul telling you to be one, think about it this way.

I do not want to be raped. Therefore, I do not want rape to be legal. I do not want to be murdered. Therefore, I don't want murder to be legal.

glennmagusharvey · 2011-05-12 15:30:46

> I do not want to be raped. Therefore, I do not want rape to be legal. I
do not want to be murdered. Therefore, I don't want murder to be
legal.

This seems to make sense as a good basis for a moral system as well as a legal system.

Heck, do unto others as you would want others to do unto you. Isn't that a Christian principle anyway?

Turtle · 2011-05-12 15:31:16

What if I want those things to be legal? It's your desire against mine. Why is yours more right?

Heck, do unto others as you would want others to do unto you. Isn't that a Christian principle anyway?

GLORIOUSLeader · 2011-05-12 15:32:29

^^^ But do you not see, Forzare? God is actually manipulating your thoughts! It all makes so much sense!

^ You are taking away the right for another human being to live. Tell me why this is not a bad thing unless God says so.

All Nines · 2011-05-12 15:33:16

"You just need to believe in God for those morals to have any rational basis."

No, you just need to realize that morals are personal and, thus, only defined by one's personal definition of "rational".

"Who's to say theft is wrong? Or murder?"

Your conscience. God doesn't factor in here; it's based on one's feelings of right and wrong. That's what morality is. And in this case, being against crimes such as murder is based on how much you care about others and, sometimes, yourself.

"If not, then it's as arbitrary as anything else and not really valid."

According to your personal interpretation, not everyone else's.

"And yet again, if you can't accept that premise then why accept that murder is wrong?"

How in the fuck are those two points related?

"You just need to believe in God for those morals to have any rational basis."

Humans aren't rational. In fact, when you look at it, "rationality" only works at the individual level, as I believe I said before.

"But why is that moral code any better than the hypothetical moral code of "murder, cheat, steal, and do whatever it takes to further my own goals"?"

It's not, because that's not how morality works.

"Well, there'd be no logical reason to have qualms about any of those things. So yeah, I'd be fine with 'em."

. . . And Myrmidon thinks Tongpu is bad.

"These things should not be criminalized if there's no objective standard to classify them as wrong."

They're criminalized because the vast, vast majority of people find such things unpleasant when wrought upon them, and because many people prefer that everyone is mostly pleasant.

"We're thinking human beings, are we not? We're capable of suppressing such silly, outdated beliefs."

We can't suppress them because we're human.

"What if I want those things to be legal? It's your desire against mine. Why is yours more right?"

See the "vast, vast" majority bit again.

Forzare · 2011-05-12 15:33:36

GET OUT OF MY HEAD GOD

glennmagusharvey · 2011-05-12 15:35:15

> What if I want those things to be legal? It's your desire against mine. Why is yours more right?

Well, this is why we have elections and legislatures. Majority vote wins. This is a sucky system, yes, but can you think of a better one?

~~if so, the royal mathematics society would like to have a word with you~~

Forzare · 2011-05-12 15:36:27

Well, there'd be no logical reason to have qualms about any of those things. So yeah, I'd be fine with 'em.

Unless the Bible is true, then having empathy is stupid and detrimental
to one's self. Niceness tends to come at the cost of personal gain.

I still can't get over how disturbing I find this attitude.

GLORIOUSLeader · 2011-05-12 15:37:01

Also, are you an Objectivist, Turtle? Just wondering.

Turtle · 2011-05-12 15:37:39

You are taking away the right for another human being to live. Tell me why this is not a bad thing unless God says so.
Because I say it isn't.

Your conscience. God doesn't factor in here; it's based on one's feelings of right and wrong. That's what morality is. And in this case, being against crimes such as murder is based on how much you care about others and, sometimes, yourself.
Okay, so... if I think it's A-Okay to go rape someone, I have every right to do so?

They're criminalized because the vast, vast majority of people find such things unpleasant when wrought upon them, and because a slightly smaller majority prefers that everyone is mostly pleasant.
Okay, so... if I find some woman and psychologically condition her to the point where, when I rape her, she won't tell anyone because she's been psychologically conditioned to not tell anyone; and if I were to completely get away with it, is it still wrong?

Also, are you an Objectivist, Turtle? Just wondering.
No, I'm a nutty right-wing Christian.

Forzare · 2011-05-12 15:38:56

We're human beings. We can think for ourselves. We don't need to be threatened with eternal damnation to be decent people.

You are taking away the right for another human being to live. Tell me why this is not a bad thing unless God says so.
Because I say it isn't.

Well, most of us, anyway.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

Helping others is socialism!

Comments