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General politics thread (was: General U.S. politics thread)

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Comments

  • There is love everywhere, I already know
    aid historically excluded demographic groups

    By discriminating against others.

    There was definitely a time when affirmative action was necessary for people to get a leg in at all, ie during the periods of historical exclusion you mention (which, unless you happen to live in a really bad place somewhere in the world, are no longer). I don't know how you explain to a modern 18 year old why they've been rejected from a school due to top-down quotas "preferences" (though personally I see this as a boon if they end up going to a cheaper school they never considered before because of the hype around the "great" schools).

    I don't know how you expect a job market to be seen as fair when people who tried very hard (parental help or no) are discriminated against because of their skin color or sex. Especially when the media will still magically turn around and continue to claim the job market is unfair on the opposite direction (which it hasn't been in ages).

    I remember reading a Vox article about how a White, Male author had fallen upward in the writing world despite the fact that the writing world is overwhelmingly female. Not to mention that his books were good, he was just also a consummate liar/fraudster, and a giant jerk.

    And I mean, disagreeing with this takes a lot of kool aid;
    The State shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting.

    Plus, pay special attention to:
    or grant preferential treatment to

    How fun will it be to work in the same department as somebody you know has prospects that are just generally better than yours because of their skin color. Oh wait, we had that! Huh, I wonder how it turned out the first time...
  • "you duck spawn, refined creature, you try to be cynical, yokel, but all that comes out of it is that you're a dunce!!!!! you duck plug!"
    Oh wait, we had that!

    By "we", you mean where you live, or the States? It's honestly hard to tell at times.
  • edited 2020-08-24 08:09:52
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    While I'm not exactly the biggest proponent of affirmative action, there is at least an argument to be made, with regards to at least education, that exposure to a more diverse group of peers during one's schooling makes for better preparation for dealing with the real world.

    You do make a good sidenote though that smaller schools might be worth considering, as a general point. Though, I think that idea is interesting for reasons entirely unrelated to this current topic.

    Also, while explicit discrimination is certainly not as bad as it was back in, say, the Jim Crow era, I'm still skeptical of your claim here:
    Especially when the media will still magically turn around and continue to claim the job market is unfair on the opposite direction (which it hasn't been in ages).
    Specifically, the parenthetical statement. The events of recent years have demonstrated that bigoted sentiment (and I'm talking about not the direction you're trying to say is happening, but the opposite direction, that which corresponds to a variety of historical precedent) has very definitely not disappeared from this country, and displays of it seem to be on the rise. So, it's plausible that there might be some truth to those claims of "the media" that you malign.

    Furthermore, there are things -- such as matters of appearance, language, etc. -- that aren't explicitly discriminatory, but are de facto proxies for race. Some people may have dispreferences for purely non-racial reasons, while others may use it as a veil for racist ideas, and it's not necessarily clear how much there is of each. But, I think it might be better to address these things more directly than with affirmative action, though I don't yet know how feasible this is in practice.
  • edited 2020-08-24 11:41:53
    There is love everywhere, I already know
    By "we", you mean where you live, or the States? It's honestly hard to tell at times.

    Well, the whole Western world and it's various historical colonies, which at times I will admit I consider the "whole world".

    And even in areas where there weren't clear racial divides, there have been many instances of people being shoved aside for preferred "groups", such as the (seemingly undying) caste system in India, or even more implicit situations like what I brought up the other day with tribal groups in many parts of Africa.

    This societal framework; "Everybody should get a shot to show what they can do as an individual, and be regarded based on that." is very new, still less than a hundred years old. As far as I can tell, most people who are exposed to it quite like it.

    I don't like things that try to mess with it, because humans are selfish and tribal and despite our learned sensibilities we can easily be switched back into the opposite state of thinking.
    has very definitely not disappeared

    We will never eliminate people thinking bad things about perceived outgroups, or expressing those things to others, or organizing for said causes. A whole generation can try, but the next will still have eyes and ears and minds capable of re-invigorating bad ideas.

    All we can do is confront things where we can. The world gets better from the bottom (or middle) up, not the top down.
    such as matters of appearance, language, etc. -- that aren't explicitly discriminatory, but are de facto proxies for race.

    This is, as you've probably guessed, a lot of different issues. I feel like unpicking our disagreements here would be too much, so let's maybe get around to it when it comes up again.
    But, I think it might be better to address these things more directly than with affirmative action,

    On this, we agree.

    Darn it this is post #5...
  • Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    Don't worry, I ain't counting, lol.
    so let's maybe get around to it when it comes up again.
    It probably will haha.

    I haven't looked through the entire thread to recount, but I think a lot (most?) of the posts you initiate are about race, gender, and societal ideas about them. (While most of the posts I initiate are about pretty much anything but those topics.)
  • There is love everywhere, I already know
    I hadn't noticed, but I have the feeling I already implicitly knew this.

    There was the one time we talked about demand and inflation, but I always get the feeling that if I discuss numbers policy I'll get even more wordy than I am normally.

    We should probably do fully nationalized medicine schemes sometime too.
  • Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    And as far as that goes, if a system can cut out the middleman, it can save money.

    Also, replying to an earlier comment:
    The world gets better from the bottom (or middle) up, not the top down.
    The world doesn't only work in one direction, and ideally it works with cooperation from various angles.
  • edited 2020-09-01 15:40:36
    There is love everywhere, I already know
    Satire requires a clarity of purpose and target lest it be mistaken for and contribute to that which it intends to criticize.

    Clarity of Purpose and Target

    As I said already;
    who decides what "clarity of purpose" is? The satire police*?

    Be Mistaken For

    As I said already;
    Good satire should certainly have a segment of the population mistake it for real things. That's how you know you're really having fun-slash-sticking it to the man. See also, what happened with Woke by Titania McGrath.

    Now, this is the relevant part.

    Contribute to

    My example in this scenario was worded badly, and it confused even me, which led me to argue in a random loop.

    What I meant to say was;
    1. I write satire about homophobic people
    2. The Satire Police charge me with lacking a clarity of purpose and/or a clear target
    3. I am now complicit in the creation of homophobic statements that contribute to a culture of fear and intolerance
    4. I must now apologize for my statements, maybe retract them, and then become educated (preferably I should educate myself) about the right way to create satire

    My mistake was, when I wrote 'gay people', confusing those who are in progressive outgroups (such as myself) with those in progressive 'ingroups', even though I had already figured that out (but then forgot).

    This is basically a threat to members of progressive ingroups. If you write your anti-racist joke wrong, you are contributing to racism, and so on with all the phobics and isms. That's genuinely insane and the tactic of somebody who wishes to go on a witch hunt on a whim.
  • edited 2020-09-01 18:22:03
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    Okay, I'm having trouble reading what you're writing, or more accurately, I'm having trouble keeping the words you've written from going in one eye out the other because I feel like I am having to back up massively in order to figure out what context/assumptions/etc. are shaping what you're saying.

    Your whole commentary really seems like "I have beef with this statement because of one ridiculously specific context on which I have an opinion". That said, the only part I am actually sure I understand is that you disagree with the statement; I'm not sure I fully understand any of the rest of what you said. Perhaps if I re-read it several more times I might figure it out, but reading it really makes me feel like I've been dropped into some social commentary context that is foreign to me.

    Edit: so I re-read your commentary a few times and it seems to suggest that you're saying that progressives are overzealously sensitive about what forms of satire are allowable. But I don't see how that disagrees with the statement.

    For reference, in case the original image gets buried:

    image link: https://64.media.tumblr.com/b294cb438a9133eda718c4d4e2bdb5e1/60bb5c194da82566-83/s540x810/9f851370ca30c3725c3404a3a83b6e360d8398eb.png

    originally reposted and followed by comments here: https://itjustbugsme.com/forums/discussion/comment/366340/#Comment_366340

    Text:
    SATIRE REQUIRES A CLARITY OF PURPOSE AND TARGET LEST IT BE MISTAKEN FOR AND CONTRIBUTE TO THAT WHICH IT INTENDS TO CRITICIZE
    (For reference, it's edited onto some guy's sleeveless shirt.)

    Satire is a criticism of something, such as a concept, person, or institution, by bringing something about it to absurdity and (implicitly or explicitly) critiquing of the result.

    It's piss-easy to mock anything by creating an absurd caricature of it. But, the result of that caricature doesn't necessarily result in convincing the audience to agree with a criticism of it. A caricature could instead result in people finding the target endearing or sympathetic, for example. It could help promote said target by raising its visibility, even if unwittingly.

    "Clarity of purpose" means that the satire must be structured in a way that clearly communicates to the audience that the target should not be respected/seen in a charming light/etc., so as to convince the audience to have a negative view of it.

    ("Clarity of target" applies similarly, such as in that it should be clear that what's being criticized is actually a real problem, not an imagined one, nor just a vague feeling that one is shadowboxing against.)

    Another way of stating the sentiment of this quote is the following comment on an example that crops up occasionally on the Steam forums: Renaming oneself something offensive like "Adolf Hitler" with the excuse that one is being "ironic" does not hold water, because there is no clarity of purpose. Instead of serving as satire, it serves as promotion.

    (I know, yes, Godwin's Law, but that's a thing that actually happens every so often.)
    Satire is a form of comedy in which the writer of the piece (usually shortform) attempts to point out the absurdities in some form of thinking, societal norm, or way of life.
    Satire is not necessarily comedy, though comedy is a frequent form.
    the best satire is designed to trick people whose beliefs do race that far.
    Ehh, no; the best satire is designed to convince people that those parts of their beliefs that are targeted by the satire are wrong.

    Something that promotes the targets that it supposedly satirizes is an attempt at satire that has misfired.
  • "you duck spawn, refined creature, you try to be cynical, yokel, but all that comes out of it is that you're a dunce!!!!! you duck plug!"
    "Ironic Hitler" sounds like a good handle. Or a good name for a punk band.
  • edited 2020-09-01 21:53:56
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    Just don't use it on Steam. Or basically anywhere where you value your reputation or don't want to have to explain yourself every time someone new walks into the room.
  • "you duck spawn, refined creature, you try to be cynical, yokel, but all that comes out of it is that you're a dunce!!!!! you duck plug!"
    A punk band it is, then.
  • There is love everywhere, I already know
    A caricature could instead result in people finding the target endearing or sympathetic, for example. It could help promote said target by raising its visibility, even if unwittingly.

    I don't understand why this is either bad or concerning. Is this just a really soft warning?
    that clearly communicates to the audience that the target should not be respected
    Renaming oneself something offensive like "Adolf Hitler" with the excuse that one is being "ironic" does not hold water, because there is no clarity of purpose.

    There is clarity of purpose though. You're trying to inflame a segment of the population, or are trying to bring attention to yourself. The correct response to this sort of thing is to ignore it, especially nowadays considering how ridiculous the whole concept of anybody taking accusations of "Hitlerian" behavior seriously.

    For an example outside of comedy, when the ACLU actually stood for the principles in it's name, it defended the rights of a Neo Nazi march in a mostly Jewish town, because preventing such forms of speech is not only starting a slippery slope, but it might prevent people from exposure to such bad ideas, which can then be debunked via not only historical context but also present time discussions.
    Satire is not necessarily comedy, though comedy is a frequent form.

    I mean if we go to the roots of storytelling, there's comedy and there's drama. Satire is never drama, that would just be nihilism.
    the best satire is designed to convince people that those parts of their beliefs that are targeted by the satire are wrong

    Satire is about having fun. It is not primarily a means of societal change.
    Something that promotes the targets that it supposedly satirizes is an attempt at satire that has misfired.

    And what's so wrong with that? That's also funny!
    "I have beef with this statement because of one ridiculously specific context on which I have an opinion".

    It's not specific. It doesn't matter if your satire is anti-waffle, nobody can decide that since you "misfired", you contributed to waffle culture. That wasn't your intention, and so you can't be charged with it.

    That shirt is basically this in short-form.
  • edited 2020-09-02 05:45:28
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    A caricature could instead result in people finding the target endearing or sympathetic, for example. It could help promote said target by raising its visibility, even if unwittingly.
    I don't understand why this is either bad or concerning. Is this just a really soft warning?
    I dunno what you mean by "a really soft warning", but an attempt at satire that intends to dissuade people from liking something but results in more people liking it is clearly not accomplishing what it sets out to do.
    There is clarity of purpose though. You're trying to inflame a segment of the population, or are trying to bring attention to yourself.
    But then that's not satire (nor irony for that matter).
    Satire is not necessarily comedy, though comedy is a frequent form.
    I mean if we go to the roots of storytelling, there's comedy and there's drama. Satire is never drama, that would just be nihilism.
    I'm not sure what going to these "roots of storytelling" is supposed to do for us; but satire could involve a tragic result of something taken to an absurd extreme. Stories often aren't purely either comedy or drama anyway.
    Satire is about having fun. It is not primarily a means of societal change.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire
    "Although satire is usually meant to be humorous, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit to draw attention to both particular and wider issues in society."

    Satire is not (merely) about "having fun", any more than any other analogous form of entertainment is. This greater purpose of criticism is what differentiates satire from more generally making fun of something.
    It's not specific. It doesn't matter if your satire is anti-waffle, nobody can decide that since you "misfired", you contributed to waffle culture. That wasn't your intention, and so you can't be charged with it.
    I don't know exactly what you mean "charged with it", but it is entirely fair for someone to observe that a person has done something they did not intend to do. No expression/message/presentation (whether satire or not) is inherently guaranteed to only result in the creator's intention being carried out properly.

    Now, a person who unwittingly brought about something bad shouldn't be viewed the same way as someone who intentionally brought about something bad. But we're moving away from the topic of satire.
    That shirt is basically this in short-form.
    And that article is basically an explanation of a variant formulation of Poe's Law.

    Anyhow, is there something in that article that you also disagree with? Since you say you disagree with the message on the shirt.
  • There is love everywhere, I already know
    I don't think that it's a satirist's job to make sure everybody gets that what they are doing is satire.
    It is not primarily a means of societal change.
    Wikipedia wrote:
    its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism

    First of all, this doesn't disagree with me. These opinions can exist in tandem.

    Second of all, this brings up the Satire Police again; who decides what is constructive and what isn't?
    But then that's not satire

    Nothing in your example was satirical or ironic to start with.
    but satire could involve a tragic result of something taken to an absurd extreme

    That is still comedy, because a part of you knows you aren't meant to take things seriously.

    A tragic result is not a tragedy.
    Now, a person who unwittingly brought about something bad shouldn't be viewed the same way as someone who intentionally brought about something bad. But we're moving away from the topic of satire.

    But this is exactly what the shirt is about.
  • edited 2020-09-02 06:00:24
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    I don't think that it's a satirist's job to make sure everybody gets that what they are doing is satire.
    It isn't, but it is a satirist's role to actually try to make the tack of their satire understood in an effective way. A similar thing could be said for any artist, really.
    Second of all, this brings up the Satire Police again; who decides what is constructive and what isn't?
    People, individually, as members of the audience, and in consultation with each other or other parties if they so desire.

    The "Satire Police" you speak of is merely the audience.
    That is still comedy, because a part of you knows you aren't meant to take things seriously.
    Not taking things seriously =/= comedy
    Now, a person who unwittingly brought about something bad shouldn't be viewed the same way as someone who intentionally brought about something bad. But we're moving away from the topic of satire.
    But this is exactly what the shirt is about.
    No, the shirt doesn't say anything about how to treat these people. It's simply saying that critiquing satire based on clarity of purpose and of target, as well as its potential to be mistaken for an unintended purpose, is a fair thing to do.

    Satire is not immune from criticism.
  • edited 2020-09-02 06:01:57
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    also (from the other thread) is it just coincidential based on the topics that come up here or is your idea of what "progressives" are like sorta extensively rooted in ideas about sex and gender ideologies

    edit: it's probably more just that you focus on these topics a lot, tbh
  • There is love everywhere, I already know
    My idea of what "progressives" are are sorta extensively rooted in the things they won't stop talking about.
    but it is a satirist's role to actually try to make the tack of their satire understood in an effective way

    I remember specifically that art used to just be for the craft, and that we all used to value artists who worked to the bone with not much but their vague ideas. I still do.
    People, individually, as members of the audience

    It only takes a tiny percentage of an audience to bring a joke down. Demi Lovato singularlycancelled a decent episode of Shake it Up! because she decided it promoted body dysmorphia even though it was just a joke about models not eating (which I mean, you've seen non-"body positive" models, they don't eat). I always liked that episode.
    The "Satire Police" you speak of is merely the audience.

    A part of the audience I don't appreciate.

    I mean, I'm betting you're not going to sit around defending the part of the audience made up of Christian conservatives who spent the pre-00s going from one moral panic to the next. What's changed?
    Not taking things seriously =/= comedy

    You've removed the operative words from my statement and act like it's a point.
    Satire is not immune from criticism.

    Of course it's not. The shirt does not once mention fair criticism. It's just a generalization.
  • edited 2020-09-02 06:08:39
    There is love everywhere, I already know
    Also, goodness sakes, this is going too long.

    I don't agree with the shirt, and think it fosters a bad form of discourse, whereas you defend it based on what you believe are it's merits in criticism. Can we just agree to disagree?
  • edited 2020-09-02 06:24:09
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    My idea of what "progressives" are are sorta extensively rooted in the things they won't stop talking about.
    Your heavy focus on certain topics isn't explained by simply that. But it was probably irrelevant of me to bring it up since I guess these topics are just your pet peeve, while for me they're not.

    I remember specifically that art used to just be for the craft, and that we all used to value artists who worked to the bone with not much but their vague ideas.
    And...part of the craft is making the art effective at what it's supposed to do?
    A part of the audience I don't appreciate.
    So this would be differing opinions on the work, which is quite normal.
    I mean, I'm betting you're not going to sit around defending the part of the audience made up of Christian conservatives who spent the pre-00s going from one moral panic to the next. What's changed?
    What's changed about what?

    Heck, there's always someone complaining that the world is going to hell in a handbasket, and picking out whatever suits this interpretation of their circumstances.
    You've removed the operative words from my statement and act like it's a point.
    You said "That is still comedy, because a part of you knows you aren't meant to take things seriously." I said "not taking things seriously =/= comedy". What "operative words" have I removed, and how do they change the meaning?
    The shirt does not once mention fair criticism. It's just a generalization.
    It's a general statement implying that criticism is fair game when satire is written wrong such that it has unintended results.

    (Again, satire is not the same as simply making fun of something. Well, if you disagree with this idea itself, then I'm not sure we really have much more to say here, because then the defense that something is "satire" can be used to nullify any criticism of it...)



    I don't agree with the shirt, whereas you defend it. Can we just agree to disagree?
    We can, but I'm still finding it hard to believe that you have so much beef with such an unspecific statement indicating the general idea that that satirical intent can go awry if the writer isn't writing it correctly.
  • edited 2020-09-02 06:40:43
    There is love everywhere, I already know
    I'm also still finding things hard to believe, but I'm not going to bring them up because I want to stop right now.

    ...
    Your heavy focus on certain topics isn't explained by simply that.

    The fact that the newsmedia, entertainment, entertainers, sports people, and progressive activists beat these drums day in and day out really doesn't explain why I am so focused on pushing back?
  • edited 2020-09-02 07:52:43
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    Except they're not?

    I checked cbsnews.com (i.e. one of the major news networks in the US) just now and there are zero headlines on the front page about sex and gender ideologies. The closest things are a handful of "these women are doing some neat things" headlines, an in-depth coverage piece about cancel culture, and general coverage of civil rights stuff related related to black people (rather than about gender) -- all of which are beneath the break in the page asking people to sign up, which is itself below the first four sections. Those sections talk about stuff like
    * Trump's visit to Kenosha and other stuff related to it
    * Coronavirus (an entire section on it)
    * Election 2020
    * Civil rights protests
    * jobs
    * Fort Hood soldier's death
    * education
    * ICE arrests

    I also went and checked dailykos.com (i.e. a major progressive activism site) and again I couldn't find anything on sex and gender ideology. The closest things were a piece on the #metoo movement and incarcerated women, and a piece about the fight over abortion rights in Missouri. Other topics include:
    * election results (we just had a big primary election in Massachusetts), polls, fundraising, ads, etc.
    * other elections-related stuff, such as something about how millions of swing state voters' data was allegedly found on "a Russian hacker's server"
    * Trump/this Republican/that Republican/Trump supporters did various bad/crazy things (from using government money for campaign purposes to punching protesters to his strange comments about stroke etc.)
    * Police brutality, victims of police brutality, civil rights protests (with a focus on race, not gender)
    * COVID-19 and its impacts
    * Climate change
    * a request for people to sign petitions (specifically about supporting Dr. Anthony Fauci's continued presence in his current position, stopping banks from seizing stimulus checks, revoking the NRA's tax-exempt status, criticizing the U.S. Senate as "an insult to democracy", and demanding that the Senate save the US Postal Service)
    * "human-interest" type stories such as about students using Taco Bell wifi and that story going viral

    There is so much more going on and the emphasis on sex and gender stuff in your posts is definitely evidence of your personal interest in them.

    That's not to say you can't have your own pet issues; it's just that that's not the only show in town, by far.
  • 10 new posts
    Oh boy.
    (At the risk of making this longer than it needs to be) it seems to me that the disagreement is about the shirt's statement (satire can go wrong) rather than how the statement might end up being used (soapboxing). I mean, both are obviously true but you two are going at it in completely different directions, something that happens often between you two.
  • edited 2020-09-02 11:59:35
    There is love everywhere, I already know
    You said "certain topics" and then decided this only meant sex/gender stuff, rather than race (which I don't know if you've noticed I've been harping on about for months?).

    I've already mentioned how the seemingly unmovable bestsellers in books on every English-facing Amazon site right now are White Fragility (distilled white identity politics ie the author says her goal is to "be a little less white every day"), and How to Be an Anti-Racist (written by an insane black supremacist who may also be a totalitarian).

    "Whiteness" is frequently used as a synonym for something resembling "irredeemable spiritual wrongness", so don't go around telling me this isn't happening.

    And the fact that you keep calling BLM protests for criminals who happened to encounter the police (where yes, brutality was involved in some but certainly not others) "civil rights protests" makes it clear that even you feel the need to sanitize what you say to me.

    Police brutality and ICE protests are only in the news because they're racial issues. Nobody cares about Tony Timpa, and nobody would really care about ICE if all they did was deal with Eastern European migrants. These are massive issues that, for progressives, are basically entirely about race.

    Also that stroke thing was a thing Mike Drudge started up, claiming that Donald Trump had had a set of mini-strokes, but of course the dailykos story clips things to make them look worse. Mike Drudge being the same new collector these people hated when he did the same thing to Hilary Clinton.
  • edited 2020-09-02 12:25:15
    There is love everywhere, I already know
    Let's perform your experiment using the parameter "Race".

    c4p78dws6cj1.png

    That last one is kind of creepy considering what we know Jacob Blake (who the current wave of protests is about) has done to his girlfriend.

    The CBS page has a whole section that's titled "The Power of August", which is just pro-BLM nonsense.

    ww13s4rzmsrv.png

    One article equates Emmett Till (killed in a lynching for possibly saying words) with George Floyd (a case that I am never ever going to attempt to litigate here, but you can assume my disapproval at how he's being portrayed and certainly how his death is being portrayed).

    Another equates BLM protests with the civil rights movement, which was not "fiery but mostly peaceful", and the "peacefulness" certainly didn't "intensify" during it. Their protests were genuinely carried out peacefully.

    You know what was similar though? The LA Riots, which I have not seen mentioned once since this began.

    tu4cdr6hunv2.png

    An article here actually defends Breonna Taylor's boyfriend, who is the man that the no-knock warrant that led to her unfortunate death was for.

    And as for this man who was fatally shot;?
    and was then shot after dropping a bundle of items that included a handgun.

    Later in the same article, they actually bother clarifying what happened;
    punched one of the officers in the face

    You do not punch law enforcement in the face, you comply, no matter what race you are. You can figure out your stuff later, not when you're staring a volatile situation in the face (that you shouldn't punch!), and you should certainly never inflame a situation yourself.

    These are not the people I will ever sit around defending. If you wish to do so, then go ahead.
    But with no body cameras in use by the deputies and no cell phone video yet to surface, activists say the public is being asked to take the sheriff's department's account of the incident at face value

    Yet the media is regurgitating what "activists" have said wholesale, they are genuinely claiming the police are lying.

    In the same article there's this convenient graphic;

    c15dtbmgvvfn.png

    To make it clear, the concept of racial justice is bad, it separates man from man based on immutable identities and will, I swear to you, result in a terrible breed of tribalism that we have tried to stop over and over in humanity.

    What is genuinely going on here is that because there is a narrative to sell, the media is genuinely picking up stories of criminals and lionizing those criminals into saints in order to destroy public confidence in the police, which is extremely bad.
  • Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    You said "certain topics" and then decided this only meant sex/gender stuff, rather than race (which I don't know if you've noticed I've been harping on about for months?).
    I mentioned sex/gender stuff in the comment that spawned this second argument, and my point was that you mention that angle a lot because that is probably your personal pet peeve.

    I went through sites looking for evidence of that topic and found basically none.

    Yes, you've also complained about race, but that topic is an actually-current hot button political issue.
    And the fact that you keep calling BLM protests for criminals who happened to encounter the police (where yes, brutality was involved in some but certainly not others) "civil rights protests" makes it clear that even you feel the need to sanitize what you say to me.
    Sanitize what?

    Last time I checked, criminals (and especially alleged criminals, i.e. before due process has been conducted) still have civil rights, one of which is the right to due process of law itself. Excessive use of force does not stop excessive just because someone's a criminal; whether use of force is excessive has to do with their actions.

    If you're allergic to me using a more general term for these protests without explicitly mentioning a specific name (which has been used by and confused between different organizations at this point), then I don't know what you're on.
    Police brutality and ICE protests are only in the news because they're racial issues. Nobody cares about Tony Timpa, and nobody would really care about ICE if all they did was deal with Eastern European migrants. These are massive issues that, for progressives, are basically entirely about race.
    I should note that this country has dealt before with issues of discrimination against Polish immigrants. The "racial" dimension has changed over time to whoever is convenient to rag on.
    Also that stroke thing was a thing Mike Drudge started up, claiming that Donald Trump had had a set of mini-strokes, but of course the dailykos story clips things to make them look worse. Mike Drudge being the same new collector these people hated when he did the same thing to Hilary Clinton.
    Drudge didn't bring up the strokes first; Trump did in his tweet.


    Let's perform your experiment using the parameter "Race".
    Sure, and now you suddenly see how much more there is going on besides that, by the fact that you had to go draw boxes to highlight stuff and look beneath the fold just to find more.

    I would complain that you moved the goalposts on my point (which was explicitly about sex/gender ideology wanking) but if you want to argue race let's do that too.

    c4p78dws6cj1.png

    Race is a current topic of controversy. So there's more reporting on it. But your pictures show that it's definitely not the only thing that's going on, whereas by your own admission it's a topic that you've focused on.

    Thanks for making my point for me.
    That last one is kind of creepy considering what we know Jacob Blake (who the current wave of protests is about) has done to his girlfriend.
    1. Whatever he did to his girlfriend does not excuse the excessive use of force by police. Two wrongs don't make a right.
    2. So his family is not allowed to have and express their opinions?

    And OH MY GOSH THEY OFFERED VOTER REGISTRATION, COVID-19 TESTING, and FREE HAIRCUTS.

    WHAT AN OUTRAGE.
    The CBS page has a whole section that's titled "The Power of August", which is just pro-BLM nonsense.

    ww13s4rzmsrv.png
    Oh hey look, two and a half historical stories, and one about boosting voter participation, and one describing the people involved in an ongoing news story.

    What an outrage.
    One article equates Emmett Till (killed in a lynching for possibly saying words) with George Floyd (a case that I am never ever going to attempt to litigate here, but you can assume my disapproval at how he's being portrayed and certainly how his death is being portrayed).
    I wouldn't have thought of the comparison myself, but in terms of galvanizing social action, it actually seems kinda apt.
    You know what was similar though? The LA Riots, which I have not seen mentioned once since this began.
    Funny you should mention this because I watched an entire documentary on it a little while ago.
    An article here actually defends Breonna Taylor's boyfriend, who is the man that the no-knock warrant that led to her unfortunate death was for.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kenneth-walker-breonna-taylor-shooting-boyfriend-lawsuit/

    "defends" what? The article reports that Walker is filing a lawsuit, and explains the circumstances leading up to it. And it even indicates that Walker admits to discharging his own weapon.
    And as for this man who was fatally shot;?
    and was then shot after dropping a bundle of items that included a handgun.

    Later in the same article, they actually bother clarifying what happened;
    punched one of the officers in the face

    You do not punch law enforcement in the face, you comply, no matter what race you are. You can figure out your stuff later, not when you're staring a volatile situation in the face (that you shouldn't punch!), and you should certainly never inflame a situation yourself.
    The article reports that this shooting took place, the circumstances surrounding it are fuzzy due to lack of body cameras ("just a day before the L.A. County Board of Supervisors was scheduled to vote on a motion to purchase hundreds of body cameras for deputies, who currently are not required to wear them, CBSLA reported", incidentally), and that the police say such-and-such happened and led to an officer-involved shooting but activists disagree with the account and are protesting.

    What exactly is wrong with this report? Is it supposed to go tar the guy? Is it supposed to take the side of the officers as unambiguously correct and/or claim without substantiation that the activists are wrong?
    These are not the people I will ever sit around defending. If you wish to do so, then go ahead.
    So is everything for you is about taking sides in social movements, as opposed to actually trying to sort out the details of the case? Because there are many good people here trying to the latter, regardless of social movements.
    But with no body cameras in use by the deputies and no cell phone video yet to surface, activists say the public is being asked to take the sheriff's department's account of the incident at face value

    Yet the media is regurgitating what "activists" have said wholesale, they are genuinely claiming the police are lying.
    The quote you posted literally gives an attribution to this opinion, attributing it to said activists.

    "They" the activists are questioning the police report; "they" the media are not the entity "claiming the police are lying". If you are going to complain about the activists' position being reported, then do note that the police's position is also reported.
    To make it clear, the concept of racial justice is bad, it separates man from man based on immutable identities and will, I swear to you, result in a terrible breed of tribalism that we have tried to stop over and over in humanity.
    I bet if I ask you what you mean by "racial justice" it will be some sort of concocted weirdness posting a variety of different articles involving a word salad of ideological terms.

    Meanwhile, though, you're managing to imply that the notion that people should be treated fairly regardless of race -- and in tandem, the idea that unfairness based on race should be pointed out and corrected -- is "bad".
    What is genuinely going on here is that because there is a narrative to sell, the media is genuinely picking up stories of criminals and lionizing those criminals into saints in order to destroy public confidence in the police.
    It's not the media who are pushing it; it's the activists who are, and those activists' protests are a thing right now so the media is reporting on it, the same way they reported on a variety of other protests.

    You're claiming a pattern of intentional malfeasance where there isn't one.

    Meanwhile, the most relevance that your position has is simply a complaint that the media is too sympathetic in their portrayals............which does not contradict any facts regarding whether the police have been using excessive force.

    Again, criminals don't suddenly become bags of straw for roughhousing by police just because they've been convicted of crimes. Doubly so for alleged criminals -- i.e. people who have not yet been given due process of law with regards to the crimes they are accused of.
  • edited 2020-09-02 15:35:37
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    Oh, so last night I actually went through copied down the entire list of headlines on the CBS News homepage. (It's updated a bit since then but yeah.)

    I was wondering whether to post the list. But I might as well at this point. Here's the list.
    CBSN Live

    Evacuees return home in the aftermath of Laura
    Trump visits Kenosha amid protests over police shooting
    Fort Hood commander removed from post after soldier deaths
    Push to virtual learning highlights wealth disparity in education
    CBSN Originals: "Censorship"

    Latest News

    Trump surveys damage in Kenosha, visiting over objections of local leaders
    Team Biden to announce record August fundraising haul
    ICE makes 2,000 arrests in largest sweep of the pandemic
    Army launches new probe into Fort Hood after soldier's death
    Mnuchin defends federal pandemic response, urges more aid
    Trump compares cops who shoot people to golfers who "choke"
    Breonna Taylor's boyfriend sues over his arrest
    Over 100 protest after L.A. deputies fatally shoot Black bicyclist
    Jacob Blake's family focuses on community during Trump visit

    More Top Stories

    Trump says jobs are "flowing back." The evidence isn't as clear
    Ed Markey beats Joe Kennedy in Massachusetts Senate...
    "The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air" cast to reunite for special
    Long-lost silent film discovered in Illinois basement
    Trump administration plans to remove endangered wolf...
    Harry and Meghan plant flowers to remember Princess Diana
    Black former franchisees sue McDonald's, seeking $1 billion
    What is ballot harvesting - and should you hand your ballot to a stranger?
    A "Corn Moon" rises tonight - and it only happens every 3 years

    Coronavirus Crisis

    Iowa State to allow 25,000 fans at game despite COVID surge
    First American to trial Oxford vaccine lost 7 relatives to virus
    Country star on releasing a new album amid uncertain times
    NYC mayor says first day of in-person classes delayed 11 days
    It's curriculum vs. COVID as kids around the world go back to school
    Senate Republicans look to roll out targeted coronavirus relief bill
    Pandemic highlights benefits and shortfalls of organized labor
    Mnuchin defends federal pandemic response, urging approval of more...
    Nevada extends eviction moratorium amid grim tourism outlook

    The Power of August

    Meet the young women leading the modern fight for civil rights
    The power of August in civil rights history
    Efforts to boost Black voter participation
    Turning points: Emmett Till and George Floyd
    Dorothy Height and the unsung women of the March on Washington

    CBS Village

    This Atlanta business owner is giving back to the Black community
    Legendary Georgetown coach John Thompson Jr. dies
    Authors on coping with racism using poetry
    Remembering Chadwick Boseman
    Aesha Ash makes history at School of American Ballet
    Preserving dioramas of African American history
    Frederick Douglass's connection with Ireland
    Number of homicides increases during pandemic
    Wrongfully-convicted man freed after 44 years in prison speaks out

    CBS Evening News with Norah O'Donnell

    Fort Hood commander removed from post after soldier deaths
    Residents split over Trump's visit to Kenosha
    EMS workers in NYC brace for mass layoffs amid pandemic
    Push to virtual learning highlights wealth disparity in education
    Long-lost silent film found in basement

    Race To 2020

    Battleground states want to be able to able to process mail ballots early
    What to know about ballot harvesting
    Harris says she stands with protesters on racial equality
    Black National COnvention seeks to shape Black agenda before elections
    Jeff Flake joins list of Republicans endorsing Biden

    60 Minutes

    A standoff over Red Flag gun laws
    Speaking with Holocaust survivors who've died
    How the Russians hacked the 2016 election
    Will driverless trucks soon share our roads?
    Adam Sandler: The 60 Minutes interview

    The Uplift - Stories That Inspire

    Harry and Meghan plant flowers to remember Princess Diana
    7-year-old's moving tribute for Chadwick Boseman
    3-year-old bakes 1,000 cookies for essential workers
    Couple donates wedding food to shelter
    Flying dogs to their forever homes

    CBSN Originals

    Speaking Frankly | Censorship
    Speaking Frankly | Fat Shaming
    Speaking Frankly | Cancel Culture
    Coronavirus in Navajo Nation
    Lifelines in the Lockdown

    Again, there are a ton more things going on besides arguments over race, and particularly over sex and gender ideologies (which is, again, what my post earlier originally addressed).



    fourteenwings, based on what you've said, your position appears to be either that the media shouldn't even touch covering anything vaguely related to the Black Lives Matter movement/protests, or that when covering such, they should affirm that the police's allegations are correct (despite their correctness being in question is at the heart of this issue) while either not reporting what activists are saying or claiming that what activists are saying is incorrect.

    Frankly speaking, what you appear to be doing is complaining about the fact that there are non-negative portrayals of, and/or positive ideas being associated with, Black Lives Matter, with the protests, and the whole nine yards.

    You're complaining about the association. The portrayal.

    The whole argument about "these people are criminals" has only one tack to it, which is "don't be that sympathetic to them". Whether they are criminals does not excuse police misconduct.
    This tack ignores police misconduct, which is precisely what the protests have been about.
  • edited 2020-09-02 15:44:41
    There is love everywhere, I already know
    I knew that post was a mistake seconds after I made it.

    Okay, De-escalation Take II;
    what my post earlier originally addressed

    You didn't specify what you meant.

    It probably got confused here:
    My idea of what "progressives" are are sorta extensively rooted in the things they won't stop talking about.
    (plural)
    criminals don't suddenly become bags of straw for roughhousing by police just because they've been convicted of crimes

    What I am saying is that all of these people (save Breonna Taylor) were in the midst of committing a crime when they were shot (or knelt on) by law enforcement.

    And to address the bolded section; a criminal punching you in the face is basically an invitation for roughhousing (unless you mean to let them get away). However, police aren't trained via karate, they're trained to use tasers and guns (as they should be).
    people who have not yet been given due process of law with regards to the crimes they are accused of.

    It's kind of hard to try and give somebody due process when they're punching you in the face in the present moment.
    So is everything for you is about taking sides in social movements, as opposed to actually trying to sort out the details of the case?

    I will never defend any individual criminal who is assaulting police officers whilst committing a crime.

    And in terms of cynicism, this kind of takes the cake;
    I wouldn't have thought of the comparison myself, but in terms of galvanizing social action, it actually seems kinda apt.

    The cases are nowhere near morally equivalent but it got people on the streets, and so the "comparison is apt".
    unfairness based on race should be pointed out

    I'm yet to see an example of this from the cases the media is hyping. They have to find criminals basically because it's extremely rare for the police to accidentally kill someone who isn't one, and it's almost certainly never because of their race.

    And racial justice is not this. Racial justice is a concept of anti-racism, and therefore it goes one way. That's why the Hispanic police officer who shot this most recent guy is being called 'white Hispanic' and the creeps who say 'this was never about black and brown' are coming out of the woodwork.
    it's the activists who are

    The activists wrote that piece desecrating the name of an actual lynching victim so they can create moral equivalence with a man in the middle of a criminal act?
    too sympathetic in their portrayals............which does not contradict any facts regarding whether the police have been using excessive force.

    If I don't think the police are using excessive force in the majority of these cases, then I have no reason to write sympathetic portrayals. In fact, even if I do think their cause deserves sympathy, I'm just a journalist who is meant to report the facts.

    An art that was lost long ago (or, maybe, according to Yellow Journalism scholars, never even existed).
    there are a ton more things going on besides arguments over race

    30% of a single-minded view on one topic is more than enough, you know.
  • There is love everywhere, I already know
    Actually, I give up.

    Go ahead and reply. I'll read it but I don't think what's happening here is constructive, or that you have a healthy understanding of the concepts of policing or law and order in general.

    I mean, somehow a police officer getting punched turns into his own fault for not providing a lawyer and courtroom .2 seconds later to a violent fleeing criminal, and that this then justifies the demonstrations for 'racial justice' in response to a bunch of incitement and disinformation by various parties (mostly 'activists' whose most active duty appears to be stoking more and more peacefully intense unrest).

    You actually say it's okay to take Emmett Till's name and run it alongside an actual criminal's because both caused unrest.

    You say BLM has become a disorganized mess to avoid the fact that it's most active arm, BLM Inc, the one run through the same fundraising mechanism as many progressive causes (ActBlue), has gathered hundreds of millions in just a few months, as well as rave endorsements from almost every breathing Fortune 500 executive.

    This as the neighborhoods where unrest is stoked suffer the inverse amount in damages, and also suffer in a myriad of other ways.

    I just can't argue with this position anymore.
  • edited 2020-09-02 17:27:43
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    What I am saying is that all of these people (save Breonna Taylor) were in the midst of committing a crime when they were shot (or knelt on) by law enforcement.
    Far from true:
    * Charles Kinsey, behaviorial therapist, serving an autistic patient at the time of the shooting
    * Philando Castile, pulled over because he looked like a suspect in a recent robbery
    * Dontre Hamilton, a mentally ill man sleeping in the park
    * John Crawford III, shopping for a BB gun and talking on a cell phone
    * Ezell Ford, walking down the street, and crouching in a driveway
    * Anthony Hill, erratic behavior while naked

    As for the ones "committing a crime", sure, let's also look at what they were accused of doing:
    * Dijon Kizzee, riding a bicycle in violation of vehicle codes
    * Freddie Gray, possession (though not brandishing) of a switchblade (which may or may not have been illegal depending on whether Maryland state law or Baltimore city law applied, apparently)
    * George Floyd, using a counterfeit $20 bill at a supermarket
    * Eric Garner, selling individual cigarettes without tax stamps
    * Alton Sterling, while being one person (among others) selling CDs, on an anonymous report that someone selling CDs was waving a gun and threatening a person

    N.B. these are accusations and not even convictions.

    And I've barely broken into 2016 in the Wikipedia template so far. I've also read through incident after incident and filtered out those where there was violent behavior that police were called to.
    I will never defend any individual criminal who is assaulting police officers whilst committing a crime.
    So, in your opinion, assaulting police officers ought to be punishable by death? Note that I am not asking about reasonable likelihood or expectation; I am asking what you think ought to happen.
    And in terms of cynicism, this kind of takes the cake;
    I wouldn't have thought of the comparison myself, but in terms of galvanizing social action, it actually seems kinda apt.

    The cases are nowhere near morally equivalent but it got people on the streets, and so the "comparison is apt".
    And so you are unable (or unwilling) to view events without filtering them through moral judgement, rather than being able to observe a pattern of events and see a reasonable similarity that explains a someone's comparison.

    Like I said, I didn't even think up the comparison but I can understand how someone might plausibly say that. I just didn't jump on moral outrage first.
    Racial justice is a concept of anti-racism, and therefore it goes one way.
    ????? Being against racism is bad?
    That's why the Hispanic police officer who shot this most recent guy is being called 'white Hispanic' and the creeps who say 'this was never about black and brown' are coming out of the woodwork.
    There are a variety of cases that involve police officers of minority races. Meanwhile you're just complaining about portrayals again.
    If I don't think the police are using excessive force in the majority of these cases, then I have no reason to write sympathetic portrayals. In fact, even if I do think their cause deserves sympathy, I'm just a journalist who is meant to report the facts.

    An art that was lost long ago (or, maybe, according to Yellow Journalism scholars, never even existed).

    Given the kind of coverage you're complaining about, such as the article about the Dijon Kizzee, you seem to think that even factual reporting is too sympathetic.

    But, perhaps more relevantly...again, you're focusing on the portrayal, rather than the facts of the case.
    30% of a single-minded view on one topic is more than enough, you know.
    And that "30%" includes of reporting on stuff that's happening. This isn't just a pile of opinion-wanking thinkpieces.
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