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Narrative Elements (project)
I propose rebuilding a site like TV Tropes (at least, a serious version of TV Tropes, as opposed to a fun version) from the ground up.
My tentative name for this site is "Narrative Elements".
Here's my draft of the welcome page/about page/mission statement:
Narrative Elements
This site is about cataloguing the devices, tropes, motifs, and other features in works of creative entertainment.
The scope of this site is narrative. "Narrative" need not be a story--it can be a message or an experience. This site aims to catalogue the elements of narratives as well as their creation, publication, and delivery. We hope to do this in a clear and easily accessible way, so that this site will be useful to all sorts of people, from content creators to fans to media and literary scholars.
Original research is allowed, such as in documenting trends. However, be prepared for your ideas to be scrutinized and critiqued.
This wiki aims to provide a neutral point of view. Our aim is not to celebrate or scorn media, but to document the pieces that produce and affect the narrative experience.
Features I aim to be used in this database/wiki:
- element entries only to be listed on work pages. Unlike a trope page having examples re-listed, an element page will have a link that can dynamically generate a list of instances on work pages.
- a way for users to rate how representative/relevant an element entry on a work page is in that work. For example, on a work page for The Bible, you might rate the characterization element "messiah" as a "major" element, the setting (or maybe presentation?) element "loads and loads of characters" as a "minor" element, and the characterization element "moë" as something that "does not belong here". These ratings should be recorded and the record accessible; they should also be tallied into some summary info (such as a "relevancy average") that should be displayed immediately on page load, alongside the element entry.
- ** element entries must include description of usage (e.g. "Messiah: The portrayal of Jesus as the savior of all humanity is the central theme of the second half of The Bible, the New Testament."). Oh, and do not "duh" the reader ("Messiah: Obviously.").
- a publicly-accessible (or at least whole-community-accessible) record of everything that every user does on the site, including proposing, commenting on, and voting on/rating element pages, work pages, element entries on work pages, site policies, etc.
- guidelines on having work pages. Complete and/or published works with stories will almost certainly be acceptable, though some (such a minor piece of fanfic posted on the web) might not be. (We may also have to decide at some point whether to include things like music and static visual arts).
- integrated forum to allow analysis of a work and easy discussion of the work page's contents, from its basic info to its element entries to others' analysis of the work. (Maybe make this integrated forum feature only visible to members if it becomes a server load problem.)
- integrated forum to allow commentary on element pages, including name and description.
- ** name is ideally clear, concise, and easy for an outsider/layperson to understand. unusual names are allowed but must be explained. preference for existing terms (if it exists).
- preferably, element description includes insight on how and why the element is usually used, and maybe what it might mean if the element isn't used when expected ("averted") or is used unusually ("subverted"). This should (hopefully) aid attempts at analysis of works.
- some style/content guidelines for organizing information on pages. For example, work pages should always include creator(s), publishers, publication date/year, medium(a)/platform(s), preferably in a box somewhere (like Wikipedia's infoboxes). Work pages should ideally contain a summary of the story or other narrative experience, as well as commentary on notable events about its reception (e.g. best-selling Game Boy game, or rallying-cry for the anti-slavery movement, or banned in Australia (give reasons), or controversial at time of publication (again, give reasons)).
- no pages will be directly ported from TV Tropes. All pages should be rebuilt from scratch. We can certainly use TV Tropes as a reference tool as we do so, though.
- ** can we reuse existing trope names (that were created at TVT)? Does the Creative Commons license allow us to do that?
Page types that will be used: element pages, work pages, user pages, management/administrative pages. Any other possible types?
I have not yet decided on a wiki software package. I think whatever gets chosen will need to be heavily customized anyway. I'm leaning toward MediaWiki only because it is full-featured and is popularly used.
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What do y'all think of all this?
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Oh, I don't have prototype pages written up yet. I'll try to write up a few soon. In the meantime, feel free to write up some yourself.
Note: This thread is for talking about the proposed Narrative Elements site, NOT for simply criticizing TV Tropes. If you want to criticize TV Tropes, go here.
Comments
And a different name might be good. The current one sounds a bit like TV tropes plus a thesaurus.
>We can certainly use TV Tropes as a reference tool as we do so, though
I'd be against that, personally.
A different name for the site or for the term element/trope/device/motif/etc.? And why TVT + thesaurus?
What about "Elements of Narrative"?
Alternatively, we could make up a catchy term.
One thing I'd suggest is not letting users make new pages (except user pages and probably work pages too). There would be a frum for proposing new concepts/elements/whatever. Like YKTTW, but not silly and out-of-the-way.
I could really get behind this.
If a pun can be made using whatever contributors are called, I'm in.
The Tropes Mirror Wiki is making a transition to this exact thing, just FYI. You sure you want to duplicate effort?
We could merge the projects. In fact I'm fairly sure this was started independently.
^^ I'm not sure if you plan on changing the name or content substantially, but is the TMW, well, largely a mirror of TVT content?
One of the key ideas I have for this project is to build it from the ground up, rather than to simply transfer content.
Yeah. What's happening with the mirror, including a rename to something along the lines of "The Storyteller's Toolbox" (based on a phrase repeatedly used by Stephen King in his book, "On Writing"), is a rebuilding from the ground up. We're going to be rewriting every single page on the wiki, though we are using the original TVT as a guideline. We're also recategorizing everything.
Our plan is to divide up your "Narrative Elements" into categories (true tropes, motifs, archetypes, plot devices, dialog cliches, and so on). They'll each have their own page, upon which will be a description and analysis of the idea in question.
Work pages will include a basic spoiler-free-as possible description of the plot, who created it, who published it, the year it was published, and so on. Work pages will also contain examples of the story elements.
We're also going to be introducing a set of standards involving when a work qualifies to carry a certain element (thus preventing someone from entry pimping their favorite cartoon into a blockbuster page by adding every possible story element imaginable; basically, if you can say "arguably" or "possibly" about whether or not Story X includes Story Element Y, then it doesn't count); what an acceptable example entry would look like (it has to include a description clear enough for non-fans to understand it, cannot be based on a pothole, and cannot, as you say, be a "duh" entry); a set of "notability" standards for work pages based on a simple algorythm of "how well known is this work", "would wikipedia have an article about this", and "is this publicly accessible and completed?" (which prevents self-promoting "auteurs" from using the site as a way to get known) and moral standard (vanilla sex is okay, kiddie sex isn't or torture-porn isn't). We'll also be policing the descriptions, so as to prevent a fanboy from excising any untoward information that might be necessary to inclusion.
All story element pages will be titled to emphasize clarity and ease of use (though "witty" will also be considered) with a preference for pre-existing terms. Though it should be pointed out that the last guideline will be trumped by the most important title rule: titles will be in English, unless there is cast-in-stone proof that the idea in question has a pre-existing term and cannot be shown to appear in any other works other than those of Language X.
So I ask again, you sure you want to duplicate the effort? Or would you rather work with a group already in the business of doing what you're planning on doing yourself?
I'll try to find it - it's in one of my texts
Whether we duplicate the effort or work with the Storyteller's Toolbox group, I'm supporting it anyway (although I must say that I like "Narrative Elements" better than "Storyteller's Toolbox" as a name).
The sooner we can offer an alternative to the language that TV Tropes has built, the better.
I could get behind these ideas; they're both similar, anyway.
Would analysis on works pages be allowed too?
^Probably, considering we're actually trying to be serious here.
^^ Of course
I'm not too keen on this. I think that the site should be a database first and foremost, and also include lots of insight into the production and publication process. Ideally, I think such a database should have information (and pretty in-depth analysis of such information, for readers who want to find it) about topics ranging from the differences and similarities of "Adonis" and "bishonen" in characterization as well to the "pay what you want" model for digital distribution of videogames. That's why I'm trying to make the name as general as possible and oriented toward observation, analysis, and understanding.
Good to know it'll all be rewritten, though I'm wondering if starting from scratch might make it easier to avoid some pitfalls that have affected TV Tropes. For example, not all of the YMMV tropes are equally irrelevant to the works; some of them are key parts of the audience reception of the work. Would be nice if those pages could be rewritten to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Though you might even be able to work with the "chaff"--even Crowning Music Of Awesome could be redefined and rewritten into an actual element worthy of cataloguing for the purpose of aiding analysis--something like "climactic music".
Some elements may be used part of the time as one type of element and part of the time as another--characterization tropes are often used as major plot drivers, for example. (I'm just thinking out loud about my idea here; not saying you've said this.) One idea might be to find some way to point out when an element that's usually of one type. Hmm.
Well, anyway, I like your idea of categorizing elements by their (usual, at least) function.
Will you be double-listing examples, on both work pages and element pages?
This is an annoying redundancy I want to get rid of, especially if we want to implement the idea of letting users rate examples.
The problem with this is that a lot of examples might fall into a grey area. For example, what if someone put the metacontext element "fanfiction: derived from Homer's epic poems The Iliad and The Odyssey" for Vergil's The Aeneid? I'd expect at least a certain amount of discussion (or even argument) over the validity of this.
Instead of drawing a hard line between "valid" and "not valid", I was hoping that having a rating system would allow dubious examples to stay up, but also allow readers to see that there's a lot of disagreement with them.
I like this. And what do you mean by "based on a pothole".
This is a good idea; some works (such as Joe Schmoe slapping five-minute poetry onto his blog) are just, frankly, not notable enough for there to be sufficient knowledge of and dialogue about them to make good, well-reviewed work pages describing them and listing the elements they contain.
I'm not sure I agree with morality as a standard. There are some very disgusting works (both pornographic and non-pornographic) that are pretty well-known and have had notable cultural impact. I think an amoral notability standard might suffice to keep out random porn flicks as well as random fanfics.
Also, I think it should be clarified that this notability standard applies to works. I think that, as for elements/tropes/whatever, original research should be allowed and even encouraged, to document current or otherwise yet unknown features, trends, and such. It's just that this sort of research should be presented for community review before it becomes part of the database.
(Just a thought I realized: Element pages should not necessarily require work-page examples to be accepted. For example, "naughty tentacles" is definitely a notable element of anime porn, even though individual porn series that feature it might not be sufficiently notable.)
I like this. Though that last bit does make me wonder if you're a bit too reactionary about all the trope names allegedly chosen by otakus. For example, while "tsundere" isn't English, I haven't noticed any English term for the same thing that's used as consistently. So you might want to dial back the "cast-in-stone proof" to "general consensus" and just make sure the new userbase agrees on the site's mission.
Also, I think we need at least one more page type: fan terminology/"fanspeak".
I wasn't aware that you were planning on doing this; as you may have noticed I thought the Tropes Mirror Wiki was meant as just that, a mirror.
If you want to spearhead this project, that would be pretty cool. I just ask that you incorporate some of my ideas that I think would be really helpful, including community feedback on example entries and integrated.
Your idea of starting with TVT as a baseline has its merits, as you don't have to reinvent the site, but just order a wholesale rethinking and improvement of it. I think that does carry some risk of being too reactionary against the way TVT does things--but then again, so does my idea, which is why I was hoping to get people who haven't quite had lists upon lists of tropes ingrained in their head (I know I don't) to build a critical mass for this new site.
Also, my idea kinda declares surrender in the battle over preserving existing content, preferring a tactical retreat back to base, so to speak.
Also, I'm kinda busy, so I really shouldn't be the one leading the charge on this, but my organizing instincts just keep on kicking in.
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Yes.
http://nils.tilaa.org/btl/showthread.php?tid=131
The following is a prototype sample work page.
Cave Story
media type: video game
format: 2D platformer
genre: adventure
story type: drama
setting type: fantasy (general)
first publication: 2004
developer: Studio Pixel
publisher: Studio Pixel, Nicalis
translator: AGTP, Nicalis
Cave Story is a 2004 indie platformer developed by Studio Pixel. It was first released as freeware, and then following its success, non-free updated re-releases were made for Wii and PC.
It is recommended that you do not read about this game (especially its story) before playing it.
--plot summary--
The player-character wakes upon in a cave, and explores the surrounding area. He is dropped, clueless, into some sort of existing conflict between rabbit-like creatures called mimiga and some other characters. He is then asked to perform various tasks by the local inhabitants, who take advantage of the fact that he is armed with a weapon (and more weapons as the game progresses). This process, and unexpected events that interrupt these tasks, gradually reveal a complex (and tragic) backstory, as well as the true mission of the main character.
If the player has performed certain actions in the middle of the game, a bonus area will be playable at the end of the game, which reveals more backstory and allows the player-character to confront a true final boss.
--reception--
The widespread success of the well-polished game Cave Story--among gamers and critics--led to an explosion of interest in indie games, both by fans and aspiring indie developers. Together with other indie game success stories and the rise of digital distribution of games, it helped pave the way for serious critical recognition of indie games in general.
--elements used in this work--
Plot and Characterization Elements
* Anthropomorphic Animals: Mimigas have the sentience, behavior, language, and social organization of humans.
* Anthropomorphic Robots: The main character is one; there are others.
* Baleful Polymorph: Some humans have been transformed into mimigas. Other detrimental transformations (some quite tragic) happen as the plot progresses.
* Catchphrase: Balrog's "Huzzah!", which occurs every time he makes his splashy entrance.
* Dramtic Pacing: The pacing of revealing bits of backstory or context at a time is key to the emotional impact of the events of the game. This is the reason for the Unrevealing Preparation as well.
* In Medias Res: It gradually becomes clear to the player that many key events happened before the events of the game. Only late in the game is the full backstory revealed.
* Large Ham: Balrog always makes a splashy entrance, and attaches his catchphrase to it.
* Meaningful Name: Professor Booster gives you the Booster, which allows you to air-boost. Misery...makes life miserable for various other characters.
* Multiple Endings: Three endings. The first is a direct choice of the player. The second is the "normal" ending, and the third is the bonus ending achieved by beating the True Final Boss.
* Not Really Evil: Balrog isn't all that mean.
Gameplay and Presentation Elements
* 2.5-D: Cave Story 3D still features 2D gameplay, but uses 3D graphics.
* Bonus Level: Do certain things right and you'll get content beyond the final boss--including the revelation of even more backstory.
* Boss Battle: Many in this game.
** Optional Boss Battle: The first battle can be skipped based on your dialog choices.
** Recurring Boss: One major antagonist is encountered multiple times.
** Sequential Boss: Both the Final Boss and the True Final Boss are preceded immediately by other bosses. The game lets you heal in between them to a minor extent.
** Multi-Phase Boss: The True Final Boss consists of multiple phases.
** Final Boss: The game ends in a climactic battle against the antagonist you're chasing after for the second half of the game.
** True Final Boss: You get to fight the ultimate root of the destruction and tragedy in a Bonus Level after the Final Boss.
* Branching Sequence: In the middle of the game, you have to choose whether to save certain characters. This affects whether you will be able to access the bonus level in the endgame.
* Dark Reprise: A relatively calm and slightly playful theme that appears in early/mid game is remixed into a much more intense and emotionally troubled version later.
* Hub: Arthur's house, with a teleporter serving several areas.
* Metroidvania: In the opinion of some players. Areas are not particularly interconnected, and new weapons aren't used to break down barriers--new areas are unlocked mostly by plot event flags. However, some areas are connected, and while the story is pretty linear, some areas are traversed in a non-linear fashion.
* No-Damage Ping: A "dink" sound tells you your shot was wholly ineffective.
* Platformer: The game involves running and jumping from place to place and fighting enemies in a 2D up/down/left/right environment.
* Pre-Boss Area: Precedes the True Final Boss. Arguably also precedes the several final bosses.
* Shielded Mook: There are two enemies that block all attacks unless they are preparing to attack themselves.
* Unrevealing Preparation: The title screen shows only basic information, such as the title, copyright, and "Start"/"Continue" choices with the main character as the cursor. The instructions are similarly unrevealing:
-->Cave Story is a jumping-and-shooting action game.
-->Explore the caves until you reach the ending.
-->You can also save your game and continue from where you left off.
Metacontext Elemets
* Digital Distribution: All versions of the game have been distributed via the internet (web download, WiiWare, Steam, and Humble Indie Bundle).
* Freeware: The original version of the game is legally downloadable for free.
* Game Editor: A few exist for the original freeware version.
* Game Mod: The existence of editors has allowed people to make their own mods.
* Indie Game: All the programming, art, and music was created by Daisuke Amaya, under the name Studio Pixel. He also published the game by posting it on the internet. This game has since become one of the most famous indie games.
* Perpetual Fan Question: Just what is Balrog's design based on? A toaster or a lunch box? The question was finally put to rest several years after the game's release when the creator revealed that Balrog was actually inspired by a bar of soap.
* Shout Out: One of the bosses is the final boss of a previous Studio Pixel game; the hero of said game appears if you defeat this boss without taking a hit. Other potential examples are more subtle, but include the missile launcher (probably inspired by the Metroid games) and the jellyfishes (which look vaguely like metroids), the bouncing fireballs (which are like Mario's), and the final boss's last words (which are similar to a line from Final Fantasy Tactics). Furthermore, one of the music tracks is based on a Finnish dance, and one of the characters is named after it. Finally, the names of the Steam version's achievements include pop culture refernces to Southpark and The Shining.
* Updated Re-Release: Cave Story 3D provides a major graphical facelift, while Cave Story Plus and Cave Story Wii use higher-resolution graphics, offer extra content, and provide alternative music.
Categories: video games
That's pretty good.
Aww, thank you! Though that's mostly me just rewriting and re-organizing existing trope examples from the TVT page, renaming some of them in the process.
Noting that you're setting up the site development thread on BTL, I don't think I'll join you there. At least, not very much. I don't really like atmosphere there that much; I think it's a bit toxic and still has a lot of TVT-mocking sentiment, which I don't think is a good atmosphere in which to develop something like this. Not to mention that I do not believe such a site has any moral obligation to worry about whether it spreads pedophilia or something like that; it's overriding purpose is to document and catalogue elements used by creative work to deliver narrative, and I firmly believe that a combination of NPOV, a very basic notability standard for works, and community review to make sure that the elements documented are actually relevant to the delivery of narrative will make moral considerations moot, and if they ever conflict, the encyclopedic function of the site should be respected first.
That said, feel free to incorporate my ideas. Considering that I don't know MediaWiki or any other software well enough to code new features, my ideas are pretty much pipe dreams at this point. That said...I do kinda really want that example-rating feature...
I'll probably keep on producing prototype pages here anyway.
Anyone know how old or widely-used the term "macguffin" is for a key item with special properties?
It has a Wikipedia article, so...
^^^ Common. I'd heard it used multiple times before even hknowing that TVT existed.
^ We've actually been brainstorming a lot, figuring out how we want to organise the pages, categorise different media and so forth. Don't knock what you don't know.
(Yes, I understand that we are probably a bit notorious here for our drama-magnet qualities, but that doesn't mean that we can't organise a project when we set our minds to it.)
Adding "Genre: adventure" to my Cave Story sample article. Forgot to put that in the first time.
Yeah, BTL can be an interesting place, but take note of something: we're actually getting this thing done. Amazing as that sounds, its actually happening. The rewrites and the restructuring have already started. So take that for what its worth.
As for MacGuffin, its a widely used pre-existing term that was popularized by Alfred Hitchcock. But it dates back to the early days of filmmaking.
I guess I'll be keeping the term then. Thank to the several of you who responded.
@JackButler: That's awesome. Just that, I'll be frank here, I just don't really like hanging out with certain people at BTL, so I won't be helping out as much. Then again maybe it isn't my destiny to craft the successor to TV Tropes.
I'll still be posting samples here, and asking for feedback. You're free to take inspiration from them.
That's cool. If you want to join us on the newly renamed Tropes Wiki, regardless of your participation on BTL, feel free to drop me a line. I had to disable all user account autocreation because of a wave of vandals.