It's never a good time to tell people that prayer is stupid.

Gelzo · 2011-02-17 14:23:38

Whenever I see someone asking people to pray, I want to point out everything that's wrong about it logically. Belief in a god is one thing, but thinking prayer has a real effect on the world is pretty nuts. If you believe in what I see as the standard model of the Christian god, why would he deviate from his perfect plan because an arbitrary number of people willed it? If death is involved, why are people only grateful that the person is going to heaven after the person dies?

Problem is, whenever someone is asking for prayer, it's often about a pretty grave situation that not much can be done about. Even if I were to be so inconsiderate, they'd probably recoil so strongly from what I'd have to say that they'd come away from it more strongly deluded.

Anyway, this is the Facebook post that inspired this.

"Prayer chain needed: X and her family. Her 2yr old daughter was just diagnosed with Stage 4 cancer. If you see this post, even if you don't know her, God knows her. Please post this for 1 hour and say a prayer for that baby. The power of prayer speaks volumes"

Noimporta · 2011-02-17 14:28:41

The cost of deviating from a suboptimal path is often too big to justify said move, just ignore it and go on with your life.

Myrmidon · 2011-02-17 15:07:55

Just shut up and mind your own goddamn business.

randomtropeloser · 2011-02-17 15:20:11

Maybe, but it's not like prayer costs people anything, and some people do believe very strongly in it. Not to be rude, but why do you even care?

Gelzo · 2011-02-17 17:30:26

Calm down guys. I said I wasn't going to say anything to the person.

I care because the presence of one illogically held belief suggests the presence of others, a majority of which would likely be either useless or detrimental. Strong belief in prayer isn't necessarily costless either, there are cases where people have died because medical care was refused and prayer used in its stead.

ClockworkUniverse · 2011-02-17 17:36:35

Everyone has lots of illogically held beliefs. Humans are like that.

Gelzo · 2011-02-17 17:44:20

That's a rather large generalization. And just because a lot of people have a trait does not make it okay.

Furthermore, I think it's fair to distinguish between illogical beliefs held because the person lacked the opportunity to know better of it, and illogical beliefs that are strongly held while ignoring reasoning and evidence to the contrary. But I guess that might be getting a little arrogant.

Noimporta · 2011-02-17 17:46:05

Strong belief in prayer isn't necessarily costless either, there are cases where people have died because medical care was refused and prayer used in its stead.

Case in which be sure to go ahead and call them out, but for the 99% that are not that crazily devoted, it's a bigger waste of both your and their time to try to convince them that it's useless and stupid, plus it might strain relationships and whatever else... so why let it bother you?

ClockworkUniverse · 2011-02-17 17:46:35

I don't mean that as a generalization as in "a lot of people." I mean literally every human. Humans are not logic machines. Everyone thinks they don't have any illogical beliefs. Of course they do. Otherwise, they wouldn't have them.

Gelzo · 2011-02-17 17:55:33

I'm sure I have at least one illogical belief, but I hope that the ones that I hold are only held because of ignorance, misinformation or because they haven't been relevant enough for me to put under scrutiny yet. I would hope the same is true for others as well.

^^I already said I wasn't going to start an argument with them. And this is IJBM. If we aren't allowed to complain about things that are total bullshit, it's going to degenerate into shitposting again.

Noimporta · 2011-02-17 18:06:53

But that's the thing, when I say "don't let it bother you", I'm not talking about this specific case, I mean it in general: You need to manage to have this stop being an issue to you, because it'll keep happening, and you'll continue to not do anything because it's the best course of action, and continue to be annoyed. Besides, you've already complained (and that's fine), there's nothing else to do but have a discussion or let this die.

Gelzo · 2011-02-17 18:13:33

Yeah, I've accepted that it's going to continue to be a part of human nature. I'm not going to stress about it, I just wanted to say that I think it's bullshit.

Tnophelia · 2011-02-17 19:01:40

It's about reassurance.

Sometimes I pray, not even caring I will be helped.

randomtropeloser · 2011-02-17 19:40:07

Personally, I always pray in the hopes that I'm avoiding some type of punishment.

Tnophelia · 2011-02-17 19:50:20

I like to tell God jokes I've heard, letting him know my motives, and generally going "sup God, I herd u liek good deeds so I put a good in your deed so u can liek while you judge"

randomtropeloser · 2011-02-17 19:57:39

Honestly, I think that's what a relationship with God should ideally be like. My prayers are usually more like "Hey, I know I'm evil and all that, but please refrain from smiting me anyway!"

Tnophelia · 2011-02-17 20:02:25

God thinks evil and good is trivial really. He just prefers we don't destroy the planet, because it takes a long time to make and it came before us, therefore it has priority. He also likes annoying scientists and playing pranks on people, usually through the methods of infertility and horrible birth defects, and weather disasters.

randomtropeloser · 2011-02-17 20:13:47

-takes notes- Hmm, that's pretty interesting. Guilt complex aside, that's pretty much what I believe, though I'd most likely replace the term "God" with "The Universe." Also, does this mean that God created harlequin-type icythyosis? If so, remind me to light dog crap on His porch. Seriously God, not cool.

Tnophelia · 2011-02-17 20:43:06

They are beyond us, we can be mad all we want, but we are using his planet to live on, and unless we can do something about it, I just rather not try to waste my time getting the attention of something beyond our dimension and weaponry.

randomtropeloser · 2011-02-17 21:00:15

I was just kidding, though I do find the idea of God trolling us in such a way pretty horrifying.

So, if God exists, does that mean He can actually hear our prayers? Assuming that He's all-powerful and omniscient, I'm guessing the answer is probably yes. Is the best we can hope for that He'll happen to hear one of our prayers and be like "Huh, that's actually a pretty cool idea. Let's try it out!" Then again, I guess that whatever crap us humans are going through must seem pretty inconsequential to Him/Her/Them. Perhaps the point behind prayer is the same reason we have the Insecurity, Sadness, and Anxiety thread; it's comforting just to think we're being heard.

Gelzo · 2011-02-17 21:05:19

Of course if God was truly omniscient, he could just read your mind and recognize all your desires and anything you could possibly want to communicate to him. So actively praying would be more or less pointless as a method of communication.

ninjaclown · 2011-02-17 23:02:26

Just be considerate. Religions aren't fads, some people join them because of an experience they've had that they hold close in their memories. I myself pay lip service if I need to.

Gelzo · 2011-02-17 23:27:15

I know how to be diplomatic and hold my tongue, but I think the internet is a good soapbox for this case.

Miya · 2011-02-18 04:33:01

You shouldn't care at all about what they want to do, Gelzo. Since they believe in the power of prayer, let them pray. Quite simple.

Icalasari · 2011-02-18 06:10:57

Well, the person being prayed to may be put in a better mood knowing that people care (it would probably help if the ill person also believes in prayer), and if I recall correctly, people in a good mood tend to have a better chance at healing up...

Gelzo · 2011-02-18 12:34:07

I don't think I understand the reactions I'm getting. It should already be apparent that I'm not going to flip out at anyone over this.

Isn't it acceptable to be just a little peeved that people act irrationally?

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It's never a good time to tell people that prayer is stupid.

"Prayer chain needed: X and her family. Her 2yr old daughter was just diagnosed with Stage 4 cancer. If you see this post, even if you don't know her, God knows her. Please post this for 1 hour and say a prayer for that baby. The power of prayer speaks volumes"

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