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Why extropianism is unscientific

13

Comments

  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.

    I would be dead and there would simply be another entity with a mind identical to mine.



    Well, again, that's the point that's in contention here. Some people think that doesn't matter- the other entity is you, with no difference between the two that prevents them from being 'you'.

  • OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!
    But...if you create it and just let me and it run for even the minute amount of time it takes sensation to register, we would not have the same perspective, which would indicate no shared consciousness, and thus I, the original, i.e., me, would not be okay with dying secure in the knowledge that another being has taken over my life perfectly.
  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.

    But is a shared consciousness necessary for someone to be "you"?


    That is, are "you" merely a sum of your memories, experiences, etc? Or does that just form an... instance, of you?

  • OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!

    But is a shared consciousness necessary for someone to be "you"?



    Yes. Yes it is. Continuity of consciousness is very, very important for...pretty much all matters relative to duplicating a person.


    Without it, you are, in fact, just creating multiple instances of a person. Whose minds will diverge the instant the second comes into existence.

  • yea i make potions if ya know what i mean

    isn't this just the Theseus Ship problem or whatever it's called

  • OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!

    No. The Ship of Theseus involves a ship that has all of its parts replaced. This is...two ships that are identical down to the molecule, sailing next to each other.

  • edited 2012-12-29 08:07:28
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.

    Yes. Yes it is. Continuity of consciousness is very, very important for...pretty much all matters relative to duplicating a person.



    But no, it isn't, because a person is not wholely the sum of their consciousness.


    At least, that is what some people believe.


    And this dissonance in understanding is where the problem is coming in. To some people, a person is not wholely the sum of their consciousness, and thus, creating a copy of their consciousness is, essentially, creating themselves.

  • OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!

    True; I am assuming that there is no magical force that will create a mental link between the two bodies.


    Which, given that duplication this precise can't really occur without magic, is kind of a silly assumption, I guess.

  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.

    True; I am assuming that there is no magical force that will create a mental link between the two bodies.



    No. Dammit.


    There's no need for a mental link, because the two instances or whatever do not need to have the same experiences, memories, and such, in order to make both of them 'you'.


    Other people feel differently; apparently, you are one of those people. (I don't know which party I stand in, as I don't really know what I define as 'me'.) But to some people, a person is... not simply a sum of their parts, I guess.

  • edited 2012-12-29 08:22:10
    Ridi, Pagliaccio, sul tuo amore infranto!

    I wouldn't consider the clone to be "me", if it did not have my experiences and memories. I would just consider it to be a person with my exact DNA.

  • edited 2012-12-29 08:22:59
    OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!

    There's no need for a mental link, because the two instances or whatever do not need to have the same experiences, memories, and such, in order to make both of them 'you'.



    Well...that's fair, but given that this thread is about an exercise that involves killing the original, I think that even if you could say that they're both "you," unless they do have a mental link, it would be unethical to do the thing.


    ^Um...we aren't talking about cloning at all. We're talking about duplication.

  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.

    I haven't seen anything in this thread that requires killing the original.

  • Ridi, Pagliaccio, sul tuo amore infranto!
    That's what I meant, Cu...
  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.

    DNA doesn't need to get involved with it at all. Brain uploading as discussed earlier, etc.

  • edited 2012-12-29 08:30:05
    OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!

    ^^^I guess it's generally sort of assumed, though? I mean, the point of the whole singularity thing, silly as I find it, is to be an immortal computer, not to be a computer and also be a human that will die.


    ^^Yes, but cloning hasn't really been mentioned at all before this point.

  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.

    I think that humanity is just kind of expected to die off for the most part after that.

  • OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!

    True, I guess.


    I'm not sure why I'm even debating this when I consider the concept to be pretty impossible. I guess I'm just that pedantic, even about unknowable things.

  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.

    Well, I also argued back, but I just like thinking about things like that.

  • OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!

    The weird thing about this is that it's theoretically really important, but nobody can really ever know the answer or act on it.

  • Ridi, Pagliaccio, sul tuo amore infranto!
    I don't think humanity will die off.
  • OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!
    Given that the Sun has a lifespan and interstellar travel is pretty much impossible, it's inevitable.
  • Ridi, Pagliaccio, sul tuo amore infranto!
    Oh. That sucks. :(
  • Well, that also means computers will die off not too long after, so at least we're all on the same page.

  • yea i make potions if ya know what i mean

    That seems more like a criticism of the internet in general (which I think is a silly thing to criticize in the first place, but what do I know).

  • BeeBee
    edited 2012-12-29 23:15:51

    Mostly, but he does call the pseudo-messianic mysticism behind transhumanism like he sees it, which should mean something coming from one of the people who kicked it off.

  • Even Vernor Vinge thinks the nerd-rapture folks are looney. That's the most amusingly telling bit.

  • edited 2012-12-31 01:14:12
    OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!

    Am I the only one who keeps seeing this thread and thinking "hey, there's no need to insult all the extropers on this site?"

  • We were doing that?

  • yea i make potions if ya know what i mean

    it's a pun on the thread's title

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